Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?

[Stephanie]

As a " 19 " year old and with the knowledge he's got,would you not think he'd have joined the police and then furthered his education for a higher position ? Afterall,he believes strongly in the law in this case.
Trouble is----we'd have far more MOJ's than we already have.

You've been back 2 minutes and already attempting to cause trouble Lookout! 

Why are you patronising Adam with regards his age yet if he dare mention anything about yours, he's for the high jump? 

What exactly are you doing in order to help alleged MOJ victims, apart from spread idol gossip?

[Steve_uk]

Can anyone explain to me why AP got about half the Bamber estate? Perhaps Hartley can help.

The position was that because all five died within a short space of time of one another it was legally the eldest victim's wishes which took precedence. June was older than her husband by a few days only, and with Jeremy disinherited due to the murders the bulk of the estate would return to her mother, Mabel Speakman. There was some controversy regarding Mabel changing her will, but change it she did in favour of her last surviving daughter, Pamela Boutflour. Nevill had left everything to June, thinking that she would outlive him. Sheila hadn't left a will so the Maida Vale flat would return to June, which in turn would pass to her mother then back to Pamela.

So as things stood legally Pamela would have copped the lot. But Anthony Pargeter and Jackie Wood(brother and sister) were the children of Nevill's deceased sister Diana, and in some respects Nevill could relate to them more than his own children. To cut a long story short Anthony and Jackie must have consulted a solicitor and the upshot was Pamela relinquished Nevill's estate to his next of kin and kept what was June's in her own right.

[Caroline]

The position was that because all five died within a short space of time of one another it was legally the eldest victim's wishes which took precedence. June was older than her husband by a few days only, and with Jeremy disinherited due to the murders the bulk of the estate would return to her mother, Mabel Speakman. There was some controversy regarding Mabel changing her will, but change it she did in favour of her last surviving daughter, Pamela Boutflour. Nevill had left everything to June, thinking that she would outlive him. Sheila hadn't left a will so the Maida Vale flat would return to June, which in turn would pass to her mother then back to Pamela.

So as things stood legally Pamela would have copped the lot. But Anthony Pargeter and Jackie Wood(brother and sister) were the children of Nevill's deceased sister Diana, and in some respects Nevill could relate to them more than his own children. To cut a long story short Anthony and Jackie must have consulted a solicitor and the upshot was Pamela relinquished Nevill's estate to his next of kin and kept what was June's in her own right.

They would have been Nevill's next direct relatives.

[guest2181]

The position was that because all five died within a short space of time of one another it was legally the eldest victim's wishes which took precedence. June was older than her husband by a few days only, and with Jeremy disinherited due to the murders the bulk of the estate would return to her mother, Mabel Speakman. There was some controversy regarding Mabel changing her will, but change it she did in favour of her last surviving daughter, Pamela Boutflour. Nevill had left everything to June, thinking that she would outlive him. Sheila hadn't left a will so the Maida Vale flat would return to June, which in turn would pass to her mother then back to Pamela.

So as things stood legally Pamela would have copped the lot. But Anthony Pargeter and Jackie Wood(brother and sister) were the children of Nevill's deceased sister Diana, and in some respects Nevill could relate to them more than his own children. To cut a long story short Anthony and Jackie must have consulted a solicitor and the upshot was Pamela relinquished Nevill's estate to his next of kin and kept what was June's in her own right.

Pamela actually refused to accept any inheritance from her sister, which is why it then filtered down to her children.

[Samson]

Actually many of us would prefer an insane woman not knowing at all what she was doing to have perpetrated the massacre than a cold, calculating months-long plan by an evil, immature young man who should have been sent packing by his girlfriend long before the deed. You ask what evidence would make us change our minds. Well since the telephone call from Nevill was how this all started any proof that it actually occurred would render the conviction unsafe.

The simplest proof is that it as an absurd concoction to be part of a plan.
Start by explaining how it makes a better plan than turning up to the farm, hearing the dogs barking and not being attended to, and no movement in the house.
And if the answer is that there was a need to actively link Sheila to the gun you would be missing the point.
The scene as found was exactly how a planner wanted it to look. The phone call is a ridiculous moving part, an epicycle to explain a planetary movement better explained by a sun centered solar system.
Indeed the whole scene works fine if Nevill never got the call through, or if the planner made that sensible assumption that he wouldn't.
The phone call has destroyed this young man's life, there was no plan but there was a phone call.
Were it not for the fact we have a similar police confection to devour in the absurd Mark Lundy fabrication, I would put this hoax down to poms being too close to the sun to think straight.

[Steve_uk]

The simplest proof is that it as an absurd concoction to be part of a plan.
Start by explaining how it makes a better plan than turning up to the farm, hearing the dogs barking and not being attended to, and no movement in the house.
And if the answer is that there was a need to actively link Sheila to the gun you would be missing the point.
The scene as found was exactly how a planner wanted it to look. The phone call is a ridiculous moving part, an epicycle to explain a planetary movement better explained by a sun centered solar system.
Indeed the whole scene works fine if Nevill never got the call through, or if the planner made that sensible assumption that he wouldn't.
The phone call has destroyed this young man's life, there was no plan but there was a phone call.
Were it not for the fact we have a similar police confection to devour in the absurd Mark Lundy fabrication, I would put this hoax down to poms being too close to the sun to think straight.

The problem the Defence has is the precarious nature of Sheila for several years before the massacre, leading may to believe she simply wasn't capable of all that was ascribed to her that morning. The absence of a telephone in the master bedroom, which might have been a lifeline, speaks volumes and smacks of premeditation, as does the rest of the plan as described by Julie.

[Samson]

The person who knew Sheila best was Colin. He knew she would never harm the children but did for a moment think she may have committed suicide. I've no doubt Sheila was troubled and may well have talked about suicide to others as she did to Helen Grimster a few weeks before the murders, little knowing how her brother would take advantage of this.

I have read Colin Caffel's letter of July 2013 in the book. By one Carol Anne Lee.
It demonstrates a self pitying piece of gullible nonsense.
I saw red when Caffel would accuse Bamber, because Sheila, a full on paranoid schizophrenic, "wouldn't hurt her children". I saw some evidence here a few hours before the slaughter that he is responsible for.

From Carol Ann Lee

In Kilburn, Colin felt inexplicably anxious all evening. He drove round to Heather’s flat in South Hill Park, where they continued an argument about his relationship with Sheila. ‘All these bloody problems with Bambs!’ he shouted: ‘I sometimes wish she was dead!’29 Suddenly an overwhelming terror for his sons gripped him, and he broke down, sobbing that he was really frightened for them.

So when his children are dead a few hours later we ignore this grim entreaty and blame Jeremy?

Jesus wept.

[lookout]

I have read Colin Caffel's letter in the book. By one Carol Anne Lee.
It demonstrates a self pitying piece of gullible nonsense.
I saw red when Caffel would accuse Bamber because Sheila, a full on paranoid schizophrenic, and saw some evidence here a few hours before the slaughter

In Kilburn, Colin felt inexplicably anxious all evening. He drove round to Heather’s flat in South Hill Park, where they continued an argument about his relationship with Sheila. ‘All these bloody problems with Bambs!’ he shouted: ‘I sometimes wish she was dead!’29 Suddenly an overwhelming terror for his sons gripped him, and he broke down, sobbing that he was really frightened for them.

So when his children are dead a few hours later we ignore this grim entreaty and blame Jeremy?

Jesus wept.

Shocking,isn't it ?

[Samson]

Shocking,isn't it ?

Yes as bad as it gets. I tidied my post up a little since yours.
This is the hallmark of all these cases, post hoc discovery that flies in the face of the stark evidence.
Many scalps need taking in this abysmal crime against a fellow citizen.
Don't blame the relatives like Colin? I am not so sure. Amanda Knox deserves a massive apology by the tabloid king John Kercher, but there is no place in the human heart to admit wrong doing it seems.

[Samson]

The problem the Defence has is the precarious nature of Sheila for several years before the massacre, leading may to believe she simply wasn't capable of all that was ascribed to her that morning. The absence of a telephone in the master bedroom, which might have been a lifeline, speaks volumes and smacks of premeditation, as does the rest of the plan as described by Julie.

Julie, a woman scorned, lied for money.

Schizophrenics can be dangerous people. I have a nephew with the condition who threatened to kill me.
I don't trust them any more than a cross bred badly handled pitbull.

In my crime reconstruction no physical strength beyond holding a gun is needed. This is the way to find the truth, see if we can make it work with the least moving parts, and lo and behold we have

1. A paranoid schizophrenic
2. A loaded gun
3. Nevill and Sheila in the kitchen where there is both a phone and a gun
4. June asleep
5. Point blank gunshots to the throat whose trajectory is completely compatible with self delivery.

Caso chiuso.

[Steve_uk]

I'm perfectly prepared to accept Colin felt this way. After all he was the one who had borne the brunt of Sheila's rages, subservient as she had been to her parents all those years, her waywardness expressing itself at school or in promiscuity on the London scene. But it was only an outburst which many of us have expressed when things are not going our way, and doesn't reflect on the day-to-day London life those two young individuals led, where the twins always came first despite her illness, when her children became manageable as their routine was to visit their mother at Maida Vale at weekends. Nothing was to interfere with these weekends and Nicholas and Daniel were very happy with their visits to Paddington Recreation Ground and the parties held in the neighbourhood with Sheila's model friends' children. It was the visits to White House Farm which as six-year-olds appeared so strange to them, which is why Colin felt cause for concern.

[Steve_uk]

Julie, a woman scorned, lied for money.

Schizophrenics can be dangerous people. I have a nephew with the condition who threatened to kill me.
I don't trust them any more than a cross bred badly handled pitbull.

In my crime reconstruction no physical strength betond holding a gun is needed. This is the way to find the truth, see if we can make it work with the least moving parts, and lo and behold we have

1. A paranoid schizophrenic
2. A loaded gun
3. Nevill and Sheila in the kitchen where there is both a phone and a gun
4. June asleep
5. Point blank gunshots to the throat whose trajectory is completely compatible with self delivery.

Caso chiuso.

You see I just don't read the individuals you depict in that way. Julie had her own life to lead; yes she was sore about losing Jeremy but she was career-driven and would recover in the most spectacular way, much to the innocents' chagrin. I wouldn't know one end of that gun from another either, and I don't have the shakes. It was a preposterous scheme really, which is why Jeremy felt the need to embellish that first morning at Goldhanger, his statement consisting of a hybrid of lies and half-truths to throw all present off the scent.

[Stephanie]

I'm perfectly prepared to accept Colin felt this way. After all he was the one who had borne the brunt of Sheila's rages, subservient as she had been to her parents all those years, her waywardness expressing itself at school or in promiscuity on the London scene. But it was only an outburst which many of us have experienced when things are not going our way, and doesn't reflect on the day-to-day London life those two young individuals led, where the twins always came first despite her illness, when her children became manageable as their routine was to visit their mother at Maida Vale at weekends. Nothing was to interfere with these weekends and Nicholas and Daniel were very happy with their visits to Paddington Recreation Ground and the parties held in the neighbourhood with Sheila's model friends' children. It was the visits to White House Farm which as six-year-olds appeared so strange to them, which is why Colin felt cause for concern.

I think you are wasting your time debating with Samson, his judgement is clearly clouded and his bias won't allow him to see past these facts.

Julie, a woman scorned, lied for money.

Schizophrenics can be dangerous people. I have a nephew with the condition who threatened to kill me.
I don't trust them any more than a cross bred badly handled pitbull.

I saw red when Caffel would accuse Bamber, because Sheila, a full on paranoid schizophrenic, "wouldn't hurt her children".

There's no reasoning with people like this in my opinion Steve.

[Adam]

Disadvantages of Julie lying to the police if Bamber was innocent.

There was no evidence against Bamber. He was innocent.

She would be charged by the police. When caught lying.

Having a criminal record may effect her teaching career.

To make Bamber look bad, she had to implicate herself in the caravan break in. Effecting her teaching career ?

Her own 1984 crime may come to light. Effecting her teaching career ?

There was no financial reward in approaching the police. This happened a year later.

It shows she was upset about splitting up with Bamber.

She would be on her own. No other witnesses could support her claims as Bamber was innocent. 

Bamber would have the last laugh. When Julie was exposed.

She would have to follow through her approach. Right through to the ultimate (unlikely) conviction. Lying to the world.

It would show she was vindictive. Once exposed.

She may quickly wilt under pressure.  This is something she had never attempted before, and a massive long term lie. So why bother in the first place ?

It would show she had no sympathy for a grieving man. Once exposed.

It would show how upset she was that she was no longer with Bamber. Once exposed.

It would show she was stupid. Once exposed.

An approach may ultimately be time consuming. Depending on her success. Taking up months or years of her life. Effecting her second degree and teaching career.

It would be her word against Bamber's. For the last month the police had treated it as murder/suicide, which was correct as she knew he was innocent.

She will not know the details of the forensic evidence. It may show Sheila was the killer. Which would not be surprising as Bamber was innocent.

It would be bringing other people into this, such the deceased grieving relatives and her own friends and relatives.

She may feel bad after her initial approach. But is coming clean now an option ?

She had already given a WS and gone around with Bamber for one month. The police will know she had approached them after she split with Bamber.

She was attempting to reverse a decision announced in the media, which the police were in public sticking to - murder/suicide. One month after the massacre.

Her approach may only last a few minutes. Experienced police officers may dismiss it, after all Bamber was innocent. Bamber may not even find out about Julie's attempt for revenge.

If an unsuccessful police approach  became news in the media, she would forever be looked upon as a heartless and lying woman. Friends and relatives may desert her.

The only asvantage was an innocent, grieving man would be put in jail. For life.

Julie still had a lot going for her. Young, a job, a degree. Bamber would be forgotten about in a few days.

[Steve_uk]

Disadvantages of Julie lying to the police if Bamber was innocent.

There was no evidence against Bamber. He was innocent.

She would be charged by the police. When caught lying.

Having a criminal record may effect her teaching career.

To make Bamber look bad, she had to implicate herself in the caravan break in. Effecting her teaching career ?

Her own 1984 crime may come to light. Effecting her teaching career ?

There was no financial reward in approaching the police.

It shows she was upset about splitting up with Bamber.

She would be on her own. No other witnesses could support her claims.

Bamber would have the last laugh. When Julie was exposed.

She would have to follow through her approach. Right through to the ultimate (unlikely) conviction. Lying to the world.

It would show she was vindictive. Once exposed.

She may quickly wilt under pressure.  This is something she had never attempted before, and a massive long term lie. So why bother in the first place ?

It would show she had no sympathy for a grieving man. Once exposed.

It would show how upset she was that she was no longer with Bamber. Once exposed.

It would show she was stupid. Once exposed.

An approach may ultimately be time consuming. Depending on her success. Taking up months or years of her life. Effecting her second degree and teaching career.

It would be her word against Bamber's. For the last month the police had treated it as murder/suicide, which was correct as she knew he was innocent.

She will not know the details of the forensic evidence. It may show Sheila was the killer. Which would not be surprising as Bamber was innocent.

It would be bringing other people into this, such the deceased grieving relatives and her own friends and relatives.

She may feel bad after her initial approach. But is coming clean now an option ?

She had already given a WS and gone around with Bamber for one month. The police will know she had approached them after she split with Bamber.

She was attempting to reverse a decision announced in the media, which the police were in public sticking to - murder/suicide. One month after the massacre.

Her approach may only last a few minutes. Experienced police officers may dismiss it, after all Bamber was innocent. Bamber may not even find out about Julie's attempt for revenge.

If an unsuccessful police approach  became news in the media, she would forever be looked upon as a heartless and lying woman. Friends and relatives may desert her.

Julie still had a lot going for her. Young, a job, a degree. Bamber would be forgotten about in a few days.

It's evidently what Bamber was counting on: his word against hers.