Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?

[maggie]

As a " 19 " year old and with the knowledge he's got,would you not think he'd have joined the police and then furthered his education for a higher position ? Afterall,he believes strongly in the law in this case.
Trouble is----we'd have far more MOJ's than we already have.

Hello Lookout, good to see you're back on the forum.   

[lookout]

Hello Lookout, good to see you're back on the forum.   

Thanks Maggie.x

[Caroline]

Woolly thinking and exactly how I would never approach the crime. This is just how they argue in Bain.

Until Sheila takes the gun, Nevill doesn't anticipate this, but it can happen quickly. As I say, Sheila was downstairs messing with the buckets, and Nevill heard it, June did not. This is the only explanation for June being shot while asleep, and Nevill calling Jeremy at the same time. How did Sheila take the gun quickly if it wasn't even loaded?

15 seconds is a long period. Count it. Only Bamber could be the source of sleeping like a log. So he awoke and answered the phone. Where do you get that 1% from?
I have already stated that with Sheila's two children asleep, and just a woman upstairs, Nevill does not expect her to shoot. So he knows she has the gun, describes her (allegedly) to Jeremy as 'going crazy' but doesn't expect her to shoot even though if he saw her take the gun, he must have seen her load it and did sweet FA!

Sheila tended to the catatonic in recent weeks, maybe she said very little before taking the gun upstairs. Yes, she was taking Haldoperidol, it has that effect but whether she sai every little or not, you're saying that after watching her load the rifle, Nevill left her to walk upstairs saying very little? So at what point is she 'going crazy'? Also why would Nevil call Jeremy instead of taking the gun from Sheila?
However you look at it, June was shot. Yes, we know that

This would definitely be heard in a quiet house, and of course the silencer was in the cupboard remember, not on the gun, Nevill heads upstairs and she turns him back with gunfire. Turns him back from where? This fits the casing positions no it doesn't as you haven't given any indication of where anyone was!
By now there is no need for hand to hand combat, Nevill's shoulder is disfunctional. She can swing the rifle by the barrel to further disable him before reloading. She is nowhere near the blood or the mantlepiece underside. The finger nails remain intact but she does leave a toenail polish fragment. No she doesn't

They are both barefoot because they have both come down from bed, Sheila to rinse her bloody knickers and Nevill to see what she is up to, but in fact probably thought intruder.
And so on and so forth.
Now, should he be hanged Adam? Are you sure enough I am wrong to hang him? You must answer that for the beyond reasonable doubt test.

I'm sure enough that the above is pretty much what didn't happen - don't believe in the DP though!!

If this is the ONLY explanation, then you have MEGA problems!

[susan]

As a " 19 " year old and with the knowledge he's got,would you not think he'd have joined the police and then furthered his education for a higher position ? Afterall,he believes strongly in the law in this case.
Trouble is----we'd have far more MOJ's than we already have.

Hello lookout

welcome back you have been missed the forum seemed quite dull without you Xxx

[Stephanie]

If this is the ONLY explanation, then you have MEGA problems!

I don't think Samson is the only one Caroline 

[lookout]

Hello lookout

welcome back you have been missed the forum seemed quite dull without you Xxx

That's nice of you Susan. xx ( have been on the phone for an hour here  )

[lookout]

Hello Lookout, good to see you're back on the forum.   

Hiya Maggie. x

[David1819]

If this is the ONLY explanation, then you have MEGA problems!

I get the impression these "MEGA problems" are like that "MASSIVE list" - Non Existent.

[Steve_uk]

Steve_uk, what do you think of these thoughts from IA?

IMO he's completely innocent. The police theory does not fit the crime scene, and it does not fit their own records. The case boils down to a couple of pieces of flimsy evidence versus a more plausible explanation of what happened. The people who "found" that evidence thereby gained Bamber's inheritance. The conviction is bullshit and should be overturned.

The guy that wrote that has an encyclopedic knowledge of hundreds of criminal cases world wide.

Charlie Wilkes.

The person who knew Sheila best was Colin. He knew she would never harm the children but did for a moment think she may have committed suicide. I've no doubt Sheila was troubled and may well have talked about suicide to others as she did to Helen Grimster a few weeks before the murders, little knowing how her brother would take advantage of this.

[Adam]

Woolly thinking and exactly how I would never approach the crime. This is just how they argue in Bain.

Until Sheila takes the gun, Nevill doesn't anticipate this, but it can happen quickly. As I say, Sheila was downstairs messing with the buckets, and Nevill heard it, June did not. This is the only explanation for June being shot while asleep, and Nevill calling Jeremy at the same time.

15 seconds is a long period. Count it. Only Bamber could be the source of sleeping like a log. So he awoke and answered the phone. Where do you get that 1% from?
I have already stated that with Sheila's two children asleep, and just a woman upstairs, Nevill does not expect her to shoot. Sheila tended to the catatonic in recent weeks, maybe she said very little before taking the gun upstairs. However you look at it, June was shot. This would definitely be heard in a quiet house, and of course the silencer was in the cupboard remember, not on the gun, Nevill heads upstairs and she turns him back with gunfire. This fits the casing positions. By now there is no need for hand to hand combat, Nevill's shoulder is disfunctional. She can swing the rifle by the barrel to further disable him before reloading. She is nowhere near the blood or the mantlepiece underside. The finger nails remain intact but she does leave a toenail polish fragment. They are both barefoot because they have both come down from bed, Sheila to rinse her bloody knickers and Nevill to see what she is up to, but in fact probably thought intruder.
And so on and so forth.
Now, should he be hanged Adam? Are you sure enough I am wrong to hang him? You must answer that for the beyond reasonable doubt test.

Thanks for answering my reply to 1081. Although my 16 questions in reply 1048 have not been addressed.

Whether Nevill anticipated Sheila taking the gun, he still saw her do it. And then let her go upstairs with the rifle.

My suggestion for June being shot with her head on the pillow was because Bamber entered WHF without being heard. But you believe Nevill woke and June didn't. Although people on here have said June was a light sleeper.

Bamber is the source for 'sleeping like a log'. There is not a 1% chance of him waking & getting downstairs to answer the phone within 15 seconds. It was 0%.

If Nevill didn't expect Sheila to shoot, why ring Bamber. Or easier still take the gun off Sheila. It wasn't a shot gun that would kill him if it went off accidentially. It was a rifle for shooting rabbits.

The prosecution case was that the silencer was on the rifle. However if off the rifle in you're scenario, a shot in another room still may not be heard by Nevill. It was a big house. But if the silenncer was not on, the relatives achieved the frame of the decade on an innocent man. 

There was a big fight. The state of the kitchen and Nevill shows this.

Thought they would have both put on footware. Or a dressing gown. I wouldn't like to confront intruders bare footed.

Anyway you're vision of how Sheila committed the massacre requires about 20 unlikely things of you're chosing to fall into place.

My scenario of Bamber committing the massacre which I re posted today,  is not reliant on any vision I have. It just has the only logical explanation for each piece of evidence. 

[Steve_uk]

Charlie Wilkes. (Jim Lovering)
He was a serious activist in the Amanda Knox solution, where the American state department "persuaded" the untrustworthy Italians to solve the case. The state department was acquainted with inviolable case facts, but almost certainly went over the heads of the Italian Supreme court, and explained to the Italian government where things were heading.
Charlie always starts at the crime scene and the photographs. These for example show a distinctly different colour of Sheila's body compared to June's. So they died at wildly different times. No livor mortis on Sheila, none, but very marked coloration on June. This is dead simple, a data point that renders all others subordinate.
This elegantly explains a common feature of murder suicide, the murders are easy and euphoric, the suicide not quite so, and delayed. I coined the term last minutism, because I was always puzzled by the coincidental timing of Robin Bain's suicide and David Bain's return to the house until I realised how this works. The murderers are not so keen on shooting themselves, but are confronted by a grim reality, explain myself or shoot myself and put all explaining on the investigators. In Bamber and Bain this was a royal disaster for the innocent 23 year old men.

I have done my research on both cases, as have other New Zealanders.

Robin was a creature of habit, which David knew only too well. There was an alcove in the living room with a curtain which David knew he could hide behind. David knew the motive for murder on the part of his father was flimsy, hence the typed suicide note, which was his fatal mistake.

[Steve_uk]

I have explained often enough.
Sheila went to bed with no period, but when it started she headed downstairs and made a racket with buckets and water that alerted Nevill to the possibility of an intruder, with a young family in his care.
Once again the debate about Sheila's fitness to care for her children in any capacity ensued, and Nevill reminded her how determined June was to prevent her, in full blown crisis to crisis mode, from a caring role.

She grabbed the loaded gun and headed upstairs, where only a woman and 2 children slept.
Nevill hardly feared she was going to actually use it, but phoned Jeremy to repair home to assist with her. While on the phone she pumped 5 bullets into the sleeping June, whereupon he raced upstairs, and she swivelled in the doorway and shot him twice in the mouth, DESCENDING TRAJECTORY. He turned to flee down the stairs, and scored a further two shots in the left arm, DESCENDING TRAJECTORY. The gun was empty, so she swung by the barrel to immobilise him, head in coal scuttle, reloaded 4 bullets quickly, which she drilled in 2 pairs into Nevill's head. Heading back upstairs she discovered June had struggled to the bedroom door with her body wounds, and she reloaded 2 bullets and drilled the pair into her head. Hence all the cartridge cases in the vicinity of the doorway.
Realising the enormity of her actions she considered the still sleeping twins, and what life held for them, she reloaded an easy 8 bullets before the spring loading got tough, and mercy killed them.

Still just after 3 am, she got busy with the branding Nevill's back, probably visited the bathroom and washed her hands, generally removing traces of bullet loading. Much later, when the police had surrounded the farm, because Jeremy had alerted them to Nevill's call to Goldhanger, she took the line of least resistance, she loaded two bullets to the cartridge for surety, and shot herself while prone, exactly where the body was found. The first shot was misjudged, and she slumped to better target her brain. This worked. Hence the remarkable fact of an empty cartridge.

I am no longer convinced the fresh blood photograph is correct, because the photograph was taken some hours later when all blood would be blackened. This in no way alters the crime reconstruction I have outlined, which keeps Sheila blood free, and does not require any fight in the kitchen.

I would like to have this reconstruction analysed and shown to err in significant detail so I can give it more thought, but it certainly fits the crime scene.

Some people wonder why we are interested in this case, and for me it is to help correct a history of New Zealand, where 50% of the population still believe David Bain killed his family. It is an unconscionable outrage that he was not compensated, but insulted by a crooked judge from Queensland commissioned by a wicked government intent on not losing of votes of their Bain hating supporters.
These people often cite the case of Jeremy Bamber to demonstrate that 23 year old men in a hurry for inheritance will butcher a family.

Absolute bullshit squared. The Menendez brothers may have done so, but the facts are screamingly different, and there is no alternative theory, and they confessed.
23 year olds are optimists, think back yourself Adam.

And by the way, if Jeremy had been insane enough to think he really could despatch three adults with a gun and make one replicate a suicide, with no forensic detail that was indisputably connected to his presence at the crime scene, he would never ring the police that night. He would roll up for work and phone them at that time. No ridiculous nonsense with phone calls during the evening. The same thing would happen, he would say my sister is crazy and she must have done all this. Far fewer moving parts in "the plan".

You're attributing far too much to a weary Sheila with mental illness and possible Tardive Dyskinesia. The nightie just doesn't speak to me that she engaged in any activity save walk a short way from her bedroom to the master bedroom. Why do you think she was found in the master bedroom and not any other room in the house? Had she been found in her own bedroom forensics would have been able to prove she never left it. Had she ventured into her sons' room she would have discovered them dead and offered some resistance to Jeremy's evil plan. No, she had to be found in the master bedroom because it all happened so quickly, like a lamb to the slaughter.

As for David Bain, too right that many still believe him guilty, including members of Robin's family, who knew him best. As for no compensation, technically he doesn't have it and the government was wrong to commission a report and dismiss its findings, but to my knowledge the $925.000 given to him for legal fees has gone straight into his bank account.

[Steve_uk]

Actually I have been typing continuously trying to keep up. To say I refuse is a broad brush.
If I may ask, is there anything that could change your mind, or would you happily have old Henri Pierrepoint hang him?
Bearing in mind he would be hanged in a heart beat in the golden 50's.

Actually many of us would prefer an insane woman not knowing at all what she was doing to have perpetrated the massacre than a cold, calculating months-long plan by an evil, immature young man who should have been sent packing by his girlfriend long before the deed. You ask what evidence would make us change our minds. Well since the telephone call from Nevill was how this all started any proof that it actually occurred would render the conviction unsafe.

[Steve_uk]

Woolly thinking and exactly how I would never approach the crime. This is just how they argue in Bain.

Until Sheila takes the gun, Nevill doesn't anticipate this, but it can happen quickly. As I say, Sheila was downstairs messing with the buckets, and Nevill heard it, June did not. This is the only explanation for June being shot while asleep, and Nevill calling Jeremy at the same time.

15 seconds is a long period. Count it. Only Bamber could be the source of sleeping like a log. So he awoke and answered the phone. Where do you get that 1% from?
I have already stated that with Sheila's two children asleep, and just a woman upstairs, Nevill does not expect her to shoot. Sheila tended to the catatonic in recent weeks, maybe she said very little before taking the gun upstairs. However you look at it, June was shot. This would definitely be heard in a quiet house, and of course the silencer was in the cupboard remember, not on the gun, Nevill heads upstairs and she turns him back with gunfire. This fits the casing positions. By now there is no need for hand to hand combat, Nevill's shoulder is disfunctional. She can swing the rifle by the barrel to further disable him before reloading. She is nowhere near the blood or the mantlepiece underside. The finger nails remain intact but she does leave a toenail polish fragment. They are both barefoot because they have both come down from bed, Sheila to rinse her bloody knickers and Nevill to see what she is up to, but in fact probably thought intruder.
And so on and so forth.
Now, should he be hanged Adam? Are you sure enough I am wrong to hang him? You must answer that for the beyond reasonable doubt test.

For Sheila to reload is again stretching conjecture too far. She was the type of girl who liked glamour, the in-crowd, she liked to paint her nails and not get them broken by messing with guns or doing washing up for that matter. She was weary from the weekend parties and not up to anything much apart from staring and lying in bed. I'm not castigating her in any way but that was the state she was in that week, and if you don't realize it you've not learned much from your encyclopaedic research.

[Caroline]

Actually many of us would prefer an insane woman not knowing at all what she was doing to have perpetrated the massacre than a cold, calculating months-long plan by an evil, immature young man who should have been sent packing by his girlfriend long before the deed. You ask what evidence would make us change our minds. Well since the telephone call from Nevill was how this all started any proof that it actually occurred would render the conviction unsafe.

Well said Steve!