Author Topic: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?  (Read 246308 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1050 on: January 22, 2017, 12:45:PM »
I do believe that in the earlier stages of a " debacle " emerging,that Neville did ring for the police.

Offline Samson

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1051 on: January 22, 2017, 12:46:PM »
You appear selective and inconsistent.

A minute ago it was suggillation that was the clear indicator, now that doesn't matter and it's actually bullet trajectory that trumps everything else.

Why rest upon opinions held by Taff Jones as carrying greater weight than those held by others? Singling him out simply because it fits in with your views is a little on the flimsy side. I haven't read that Taff was an expert in bullet trajectories, or indeed seen anywhere that this was the reason for his opinions held prior to his unfortunate accident.

I'm not sure what relevance JM's life and career has on determining who was responsible for the murders over 30 years ago.
JM was described in lurid detail by Carol Ann Lee, for example

Julie stammered: ‘Yes . . . I . . . didn’t know what else to do. I didn’t want to believe it – I didn’t know whether I could believe it.’ She told him that in order to convince herself, she had volunteered to identify the bodies, simultaneously intending to ask Sheila and June for their advice. A collective intake of breath went round the court. Rivlin allowed it to settle, then asked: ‘When you say “the advice of Sheila and her mother”, you are talking about the dead Sheila and the dead mother?’ Julie looked back at him, her chin jutting. ‘Yes, that’s correct. I believe in the spiritual world. I believe you can talk to people and help them reason. I believe there is a God.’ She hesitated, then said: ‘I had no other option. They would know what happened. Nobody else would.’

What a load of crap. She was eying that big cheque and the apartment already. She should be in jail.


guest2181

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1052 on: January 22, 2017, 12:49:PM »
Presumably with your research you are aware that the farm was (and is) owned by the 'Henry Smith Trust'?

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Offline Samson

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1053 on: January 22, 2017, 12:51:PM »
Presumably with your research you are aware that the farm was (and is) owned by the 'Henry Smith Trust'?

How about this? I was so intrigued I transcribed the whole thing for reference. Maybe you can see mendacity oozing from this account and contend the relatives are pure as driven snow.
Maybe not though.

On the 29th September 1985 a 24 year old man Jeremy Bamber was arrested at the Port of Dover and charged with shooting his entire family. His father 61 year old Neville his mother 61 year old June his sister 27 year old Sheila and her 2 twins 6 year olds Nicholas and Daniel.
On the 28th October 1986, Jeremy Bamber was sentenced to life imprisonment with a minimum tariff of 25 years. To mark his 28th year of wrongful imprisonment we want to trace one of the biggest issues in this case, that of money, and the testimony of key prosecution witnesses, as it was considered that money and the inheritance of the family assets was Jeremy's motive to kill everyone.

Julie Mugford, the girlfriend that Jeremy jilted for another woman not long after the tragedies, made up a story about a hit man, when she herself had been charged with theft, and this particular situation was acted by her to take revenge on an innocent man. She claimed in court that Jeremy had told her, that the hitman had told him, that he had shot Neville 7 times as the police reported, but Neville Bamber was actually shot 8 times. Julie Mugford arranged the deal with the News of the World before the trial for a 25 thousand pound payoff paid on his conviction only, and that sum was worth about 80k in todays terms. She did not sign the contract until minutes after the verdict was announced, when she was waiting with photographers and a journalist, and two police officers in a local hotel, and some of her statements and interviews remain under public interest immunity. Furthermore, Julie Mugford was granted immunity from prosecution provided that she gave evidence for the crown at Jeremy's trial. So much for fair justice.

Jeremy's parents, Neville and June Bamber were a wealthy and successful farming couple. June Bamber was the daughter of wealthy landowners, Lesley and Mabel Speakman. June's sister Pamela married a local man named Robert Boutflour, and they had two children, David and Anne, who also went into the farming business themselves. Later, Anne Boutflour married Peter Eaton, and they farmed Peter's share of the land which was jointly owned with his brother. Before Neville Bamber's death, Peter's father died and Peter's brother, John Eaton, had inherited half the land which he intended to sell to the Bambers. Concerned that their livelihood would be in jeopardy, Peter and Anne did not obtain financial help to purchase this land from Anne's parents, but instead made an approach to Anne's uncle, Neville Bamber, who bought the land from John, so that they were able still to farm the acreage until such time as they could afford to purchase it. This meant that when Neville Bamber died in the tragedy, his son Jeremy now owned unknowingly half of the Eaton's farm. Local gossip was retold about the land deal in police records. Apparently Neville Bamber had had a fight with John Eaton in a local pub over some land that Neville purchased, which Neville felt was vastly overpriced. The jury at Jeremy's trial was suspicious of the testimony of Robert Boutflour and relatives, asked the following question. If Jeremy Bamber was found guilty and imprisoned for many years, who would be the beneficiaries of the Bamber estate and monies? Could it be his uncle and family? A possible reason or motive for Robert Boutflour's statement about Jeremy's being able to kill his own parents. The Eatons and the Boutflours were, after all, the ones who found the only evidence which convicted Jeremy, the sound moderator. Mysteriously, this was in the very cupboard already searched by the police 3 days prior to the relatives finding it. The jury were told via a statement from Robert Boutflour that he was wealthy in his own right, but neither the jury, nor the defence knew anything about the secret land deal in which Jeremy now owned half of the Eatons' land. It was only in 1986, after the trial, when Peter Eaton told the truth about this deal to the Dickenson investigation, which was set up to explore the police handling of the case. Robert Boutflour had also disguised financial affairs from the court in a second way. Jeremy's grandmother Mabel Speakman, who had survived her husband Leslie, rearranged her will leaving a large part of her estate to June and Pamela, her daughters. Robert Boutflour told the jury that he and his wife owned the land that they farmed, but failed to mention that at the time of the tragedies, Mabel Speakman owned the land they farmed, not them. Which meant that once Mabel Speakman died, her estate would pass to June and Pamela. But as June was now deceased and Jeremy was her remaining next of kin, he would also unknowingly have owned half the land they farmed. This only became clear during the statements made by Robert Boutflour to the City of London police in 1991 when he discussed the fact that after his wife inherited the farm from Mabel Speakman, she gave her husband Robert his own equal share of the land they were farming, known as Carbonle's farm. Which meant that he was a wealthy land owner in his own right. This means that during the trial Robert Boutflour did not make it clear to the jury  that at the time of the tragedy and during the weeks after, he did not own the land he was farming therefore he did have a very strong motive to lie to the jury as they had suspected. Owing to the Eatons' secret land deal, and if Mabel Speakman had died before her will was changed, Jeremy unknowingly, would have inherited the entire Bamber estate including half of the Eatons' farm and half of the Boutflours' farm, which would have put the relatives into a financially vulnerable position.

According to companies house records in 1985 N and J Bamber limited had been a successful company worth about 400,000 pounds. Neville Bamber the father was worth about 310,000 and a further 80,000 from other personal assets. Jeremy's share was worth about 75,000. After he was convicted he lost legal control of the company. Between the years 1984 and 1988, N and J Bamber made an average profit of about 60,000 a year. Based on these figures the company would have been expected to make about 600,000 pounds in profit, about 60,000 a year over the next ten years. Yet the accounts show that the company made less than 4,000 pounds. This excludes the 58,000 pounds from the winding up of the company in 1998. N and J Bamber Ltd had a fixed asset value of  79,800 pounds in 1984 and a fixed assets value of zero from 1990 to 1998, meaning that between 1985 and 1989 N and J B Ltd lost the whole 79,800 pounds in fixed assets under the control of Peter Eaton and Mr Wilson. Mabel Speakman had been ill for some time, and shortly after the tragedies, but before the trial, she mysteriously changed her will, leaving her entire estate to her daughter Pamela Boutflour. This was just 2 weeks after she had been declared medically unable to make a statement to the police owing to ill health. During the trial Robert Boutflour had responded with a definitive statement that included
" Personally I would have no claim on the estate and would not benefit in any way."
Curiously, Robert Boutflour appears in a deed dated 4 August 1987 which was made between one Mr Cock, Mrs Boutflour the second Robert Boutflour and third defendants Martin Cowell. It was agreed and declared that from the respective deaths of Mr Bamber, Mrs Bamber and Mrs Caffell, Mr Cock stand possessed of all Mrs Boutflour's interest in the respective estates of Mr Bamber Mrs Bamber and Mrs Caffell upon trust for Mrs Boutflour's children, the 5th defendant, Mr Boutflour and 6th defendant, Mrs Eaton in equal shares absolutely. This means that after the death of Neville, June and Sheila, Basil Cock the company accountant was an executor to the estate. He decided that as June's mother Mabel Speakman was still alive when the tragedies happened, she would now inherit the whole estate. As Jeremy was convicted of murder he could not inherit his parents' share, but he still owned 20% of the company N and J Bamber in his own right. Antony Pargeter and Jaqueline Wood were now Neville's next of kin, and in 1992 made a claim against Basil Cock's decision to give the entire estate to Mabel Speakman, simply because when Mabel Speakman died, before the trial but after the tragedy, she had left her entire estate to her daughter Pamela Boutflour, wife of Robert. Pamela then kept half the estate for herself and divided Carbonle's farm between Robert and herself, also giving June and Neville's share of the estate to her children equally, David Boutflour and Anne Eaton. This meant that with Jeremy in prison, the Boutflours and Eatons now had control of all the family assets, including Jeremy's 20% share. The case went to the high court, justice brought by Antony Pargeter and Jacqueline Wood. But on the first day of proceedings they all agreed to an out of court settlement. This meant that Jeremy would not know what the exact terms of the settlement were other than the fact that Antony and Jacqueline would take Neville Bamber's share of the estate. The statement of claim does not suggest that Antony Pargeter and Jacqueline Wood knew their uncle Neville also owned half of the Eatons' farm. The company was eventually wound up many years later leaving Jeremy with a debt of 16,000 pounds, no assets, which was to ensure that he had no finances with which to fight an appeal. Jeremy therefore has been deprived of his own  personal wealth because of his conviction, and has never been able to obtain the personal money taken from him with which to fight legal action. There is therefore no legal aid and he can't progress with this.

The N and J Bamber company solicitor Mr Wilson had made Peter Eaton a director of the company without Jeremy's consent. Jeremy had simply believed that Peter Eaton was acting as a manager after the tragedies. Further to this in 1987, the company secretary, Barbara Wilson, approached the police and reported a string of fraudulent activity allegedly carried out by Peter Eaton. This included the following
1. Disposal of farm machinery
2. Sale of a combine harvester.
3. Theft of monies
4. Excessive expenditure
5. Obtaining of discounts using the Bamber company
6. Obtaining of goods being paid for by the Bamber company
7. Using manpower from the estate on his own land
8. Stealing a tractor engine
9. Selling off cattle from the Bamber farm
10. Sale of Jeremy's car and keeping the funds.
Essex police failed to investigate the claims until after the first appeal of Jeremy, as this would ensure that the integrity of a key prosecution witness was not brought into question. It is unclear whether the allegations relate to the time before Jeremy Bamber was taken into police custody.

Antony Pargeter claimed to have kept his rifle and its accessories at White House Farm where it is licenced for use. In his 12 december 1985 statement he claims he left his rifle at the farm and he told the court at the trial he'd bought a sound moderator with the gun which he kept at WHF and yet noone even questioned where this identical moderator was kept during and after the tragedies. In 1991 Antony Pargeter changed his story and told the city of London police investigation that his gun was not at the farm. In the same year he was awarded 40,000 pounds damages and 60,000 costs by the Sunday Sport when they had claimed he could have been a suspect in the murders because bullets found at the scene could have been fired from his rifle. It is unclear what his statement of claim to the court actually was. For example  he may have made the claim that his rifle was not after all at the farm, but we simply do not know.

The evidence presented in this video coupled with the material on the website proving Jeremy's innocence strongly suggests that the court were not told the truth about the relatives' financial motive and neither were the jury clear about Sheila Caffel's medical history. Her diaries and medical records were refused disclosure to the defence. There is and never has been any evidence connecting Jeremy Bamber to the killing of his family. The case at trial relied on those who benefited from his conviction and from the evidence they obtained 3 days after the tragedies
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 12:54:PM by Samson »

guest2181

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1054 on: January 22, 2017, 12:58:PM »
How about this?
...............


Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've all heard this before and it doesn't relate to my post.

I was merely suggesting that with all of your research, you must surely have been aware that Whitehouse Farm was rented from the 'Henry Smith Charity Trust'.

So your statement that JB should be given ownership is incorrect on a number of levels.

If you've made a mistake, that's fine. It's not a problem.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1055 on: January 22, 2017, 01:01:PM »
I do believe that in the earlier stages of a " debacle " emerging,that Neville did ring for the police.

Welcome back Lookout.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Adam

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1056 on: January 22, 2017, 01:01:PM »
I've put up 16 questions on the latest scenario in post 1048. Which is the same amount I had for David.

David didn't address any of them, except to say Nevill did not call the police.

Hopefully Samson can address my 15 points and with a huge amount of benefits of doubts &  multiple very unlikely but not impossible occurances, a Sheila scenario has been created.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 01:10:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Samson

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1057 on: January 22, 2017, 01:07:PM »
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've all heard this before and it doesn't relate to my post.

I was merely suggesting that with all of your research, you must surely have been aware that Whitehouse Farm was rented from the 'Henry Smith Charity Trust'.

So your statement that JB should be given ownership is incorrect on a number of levels.

If you've made a mistake, that's fine. It's not a problem.
I am interested in whether it is all true, partially true or all false. It reads as though Jeremy has been fleeced by a wolf pack. This is not the way society can function.
In reality we are charging around the rabbit hole with Alice and her friends when attending to this fine detail.
As Churchill might say, tomorrow we will be debating who stole the tarts, yet Jeremy will still be innocent.

Offline Samson

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1058 on: January 22, 2017, 01:09:PM »
Welcome back Lookout.
Thanks for my welcome Caroline.  ;)

Offline Samson

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1059 on: January 22, 2017, 01:14:PM »
I've put up 15 questions on the latest scenario in post 1048. Which is the same amount I had for David.

David didn't address any of them, except to say Nevill did not call the police.

Hopefully Samson can address my 15 points and with a huge amount of benefits of doubts &  multiple very unlikely but not impossible occurances, a Sheila scenario has been created.
I suggest you start again and eliminate as many moving parts from the crime as possible Adam.
It is stunning how the epicycles disappeared when Galileo put the sun at the center, and the same thing happens when Jeremy is left asleep in bed and awoken with a phone call from Nevill. No bikes, wetsuits, impossible to discard bloody apparel, nylon threads to pull that window latch down to vertical after exiting with no disturbance to the paraphernalia on the window sill, no inside or outside dogs not barking and waking June, no Sheila being subdued with weedkiller so she would enjoy being shot dead next to her dead mother....

Offline lookout

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1060 on: January 22, 2017, 01:15:PM »
Welcome back Lookout.





I was hoping I wouldn't be noticed. ;D ;D ;D ;D,but thankyou. It was more to do with Barry George that I returned because I felt pity for a poor man who wasn't able to defend himself.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1061 on: January 22, 2017, 01:17:PM »




I was hoping I wouldn't be noticed. ;D ;D ;D ;D,but thankyou. It was more to do with Barry George that I returned because I felt pity for a poor man who wasn't able to defend himself.

Whatever the reason, it's not the same without you!  ;D
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Adam

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1062 on: January 22, 2017, 01:22:PM »
I suggest you start again and eliminate as many moving parts from the crime as possible Adam.
It is stunning how the epicycles disappeared when Galileo put the sun at the center, and the same thing happens when Jeremy is left asleep in bed and awoken with a phone call from Nevill. No bikes, wetsuits, impossible to discard bloody apparel, nylon threads to pull that window latch down to vertical after exiting with no disturbance to the paraphernalia on the window sill, no inside or outside dogs not barking and waking June, no Sheila being subdued with weedkiller so she would enjoy being shot dead next to her dead mother....

Sorry I don't quite follow. What's wetsuits got to do with my multiple questions on you're scenario ?

'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1063 on: January 22, 2017, 01:27:PM »
Here are my questions again on the latest submitted Sheila scenario. Available for anyone to answer as Samson has currently just mentioned wetsuits.

I will post my Bamber breakdown now. Again, anyone can ask me questions which I will happily answer.

                                       -----------------

At 3am the 'alleged' earlier conversation about fostering is brought up again. Seems a bit of a strange time to start talking about this again.

Both Nevill & Sheila are bare footed in nightie/pyjamas. Although Nevill thought intruders were in WHF & Sheila went downstairs to do things.

The loaded gun had surprisingly apparently not been put away by Nevill, June & certainly not by Bamber, who had not bothered putting it back where he collected it from the night before.

Sheila is upset at the apparent 3am conversation and June's apparent determination. She takes the loaded gun and goes upstairs.  Nevill amazingly lets her.

Nevill has preferred to ring Bamber at 3am. Who was 'sleeping like a log' three miles away.

Bamber somehow answers his downstairs phone before his answering machine comes on,  within  about 15 seconds. Which is the amount of time it would take Sheila to get upstairs,  aim and fire at June.

Nevill is aware Sheila has opened fire upstairs as he only says 11 words to Bamber after Bamber answers the phone within 15 seconds.   

It's unlikely Nevill would be able to hear the upstairs shots with his one free ear. The gun was quiet.

Nevill runs upstairs unprotected and gets within a foot of Sheila. However no physical confrontation takes place although Sheila manages 4 accurrate shots.

Nevill runs straight back downstairs after being shot 4 times. Why he did nothing upstairs no one knows. He had run upstairs to protect his family after hearing shots. What was he expecting when he got upstairs, tea & biscuits ?

After 9 shots there are still two bullets left. However the kitchen fight now commences. 

Nevill had multiple head and arm injuries. Thread created. This would not happen from just one swing of the rifle. Sheila was surprisingly unmarked in this kitchen fight.

Large and 6.4 Nevill fell a long way towards the floor and landed face first on top of a coal scuttle. And does not knock it over.

This scenario has Sheila completing the massacre and washing her hands just after 3am. However Bamber said Nevill rang him at 3.10am before the massacre had started.

The twins had stayed asleep during the massacre. Although people claim Sheila would have woken during Bamber's relatively quiet massacre.

There is no mention of the bible or suicide note. The suicide notes can be discarded however the bible must be included in Sheila's scenario. Otherwise it was a plant. The police were outside, so not sure how Sheila read the bible in the dark.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 01:32:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?
« Reply #1064 on: January 22, 2017, 01:27:PM »
Thanks for my welcome Caroline.  ;)

Well, perhaps if you has posted in the correct place for you first post you may have received more welcomes. It isn't a free for all here as it is on the IA board, you're supposed to introduce yourself in the foyer; I suggest you do that.
Few people have the imagination for reality