Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?

[Steve_uk]

There is often a "Family Room" where the children can play/watch television and parents can join them informally. Sometimes it's a large kitchen which performs this function. The drawing room would be an altogether more formal, sit up straight, be on best behaviour, affair. Definitely not child friendly. Farming families don't tend to be money oriented in the way that the nouvelle riche are, partly because it -used to be, anyway- tended to be about OLD money which always seemed to be there, making more.

So many things ran through my mind and I wondered why there were not two sitting rooms in that large mansion house as well as the kitchen, which to my mind was a bit of a disappointment in the scheme of things. I was thinking when my mother died, the family house was sold and with that the Sunday family gathering was abandoned what effect not having a family room might have had on the Bambers?

[David1819]

Compared to their contemporaries at Gresham's, who no doubt boasted of their daddies' thousands of acres and stocks and shares Jeremy was on the lower rung of the ladder, but I'm not sure I agree with you that they weren't rich in comparison to (say) Julie's background. I agree that farming is a vocation, but Nevill had the Midas touch and knew what to plant and what to diversify into.

Steve What do you make of the allegations by Brett Collins that Jeremy was raped at Gresham's? If true that would explain allot more of his hatred towards his parents for sending him there.

[Jane]

Compared to their contemporaries at Gresham's, who no doubt boasted of their daddies' thousands of acres and stocks and shares Jeremy was on the lower rung of the ladder, but I'm not sure I agree with you that they weren't rich in comparison to (say) Julie's background. I agree that farming is a vocation, but Nevill had the Midas touch and knew what to plant and what to diversify into.

I was with a friend yesterday whose husband was at Greshams. Taught by a gay master -it was common knowledge- who was a brilliant teacher, he loved every moment of his time there. I agree that they were in a very different position financially from Julie's family. There would have been that casual assuredness that being comfortably cushioned -for generations- brings. I also agree that Nevill had a good head for business.

[Jane]

So many things ran through my mind and I wondered why there were not two sitting rooms in that large mansion house as well as the kitchen, which to my mind was a bit of a disappointment in the scheme of things. I was thinking when my mother died, the family house was sold and with that the Sunday family gathering was abandoned what effect not having a family room might have had on the Bambers?

Steve, I imagine that there were two sitting rooms. As you say, the house was big enough but certainly NOT a mansion. I think I've seen a picture of a sitting room which I'd call shabby chic -old money isn't bothered with constantly refurbishing. I'd suppose that as long as they had somewhere where they could be, as a family, it was alright.

[Steve_uk]

Steve What do you make of the allegations by Brett Collins that Jeremy was raped at Gresham's? If true that would explain allot more of his hatred towards his parents for sending him there.

Sexuality can be complex and nobody knows for sure, but I do think that something did happen, with a young boy in a strange and vulnerable environment having to bathe and shower not knowing who was nearby. He may have been determined that nothing similar would ever happen to him again, this experience being projected onto the twins as they too were violated when lying utterly defenceless in their beds.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, I imagine that there were two sitting rooms. As you say, the house was big enough but certainly NOT a mansion. I think I've seen a picture of a sitting room which I'd call shabby chic -old money isn't bothered with constantly refurbishing. I'd suppose that as long as they had somewhere where they could be, as a family, it was alright.

But did they ever talk to one another? Again there is a parallel with the David Bain case, where admittedly they were not in the same financial circumstances and White House Farm was certainly a much cleaner environment, but I get the feeling that there was a disconnect with both families and as Jeremy and David grew older they both found no other escape than to kill all.

[Jan]

Another 'respected expert' said that he is.

is that the one who did not meet with him?

[Steve_uk]

I can't help comparing some of the remarks made on the David Bain case to Jeremy:

At the time of writing, David Bain has a minimum of 14 years to serve before he becomes eligible for parole. Some of his relatives, fearing an early discharge, have already left New Zealand and are living abroad. Not only fear of repetiton of the crime, but its pitiful nature and the ghosts of the scene-also the state of the house-have taken a hidden toll. For many months after the trial members of the jury and police both men and women who were at the scene continued to experience nightmares in flashback, despite trauma counselling. Some still do.

For a time David Bain wrote many letters of complaint from prison to the authorities in Wellington. He has settled down and is said by the governor of Paparua Prison to have become a model inmate. The reaction to prison lags to newcomers can be revealing. At Paparua David met with savage humour after arriving from Dunedin. The inmates' response is best summed up by a conversation between the convicted child-abuser Peter Ellis, and David Bain in a wing of the prison. At a chance meeting in a corridor, the following exchange reportedly occurred:

"Hullo David."

"Hullo Peter."

"David, I'll be your friend. But please don't treat me as family."

By most accounts David Bain has now begun to accept that he is in "for the long haul"; he makes phone calls, writes letters, wears out batteries listening to recordings of opera sent by his supporters and friends. His supporters include students, university lecturers, journalists, spiritualists, Christian groups, nurses, housewives. In letters to friends he expresses a faith in Christianity and Jesus. In a magazine article published in August 1996 he excuses his mother for treating his father so badly. He discusses a family in trouble but in such a way -Laniet: "a wonderful loving sister...She was very dear to me"-that the image that is projected remains sanitised.

There are stirrings of self-pity in his letters. But one listens in vain for a voice of grieving, of conscience, of torment, of genuine bewilderment. He feels sorrow. but the sorrow is delivered in the flat monotone of the witness box, devoid of inflection and without a hint of understanding of what life might mean to others. Feeling, like the moral sense, remains absent. Remorse appears beyond him.

[Jane]

But did they ever talk to one another? Again there is a parallel with the David Bain case, where admittedly they were not in the same financial circumstances and White House Farm was certainly a much cleaner environment, but I get the feeling that there was a disconnect with both families and as Jeremy and David grew older they both found no other escape than to kill all.

My feeling is that they didn't. I know very few families who are capable of real intimacy -I'm not making sexual references here- most seem to prefer to pretend whatever it is, ISN'T happening. I'm not denigrating, Steve. Intimacy takes courage..............but without it there is that disconnect you were talking about.

[Steve_uk]

My feeling is that they didn't. I know very few families who are capable of real intimacy -I'm not making sexual references here- most seem to prefer to pretend whatever it is, ISN'T happening. I'm not denigrating, Steve. Intimacy takes courage..............but without it there is that disconnect you were talking about.

The excuse that the Bambers gave for sending away Jeremy, namely that one day later in life he would have to employ locals and been seen to be in some way superior to them may or may not have been legitimate, but how could they possibly justify doing the same to Sheila, or was the cat let out of the bag that they weren't really interested in parenting, preferring to delegate this role to any paid factotum who came readily to hand..

[David1819]

I can't help comparing some of the remarks made on the David Bain case to Jeremy:

At the time of writing, David Bain has a minimum of 14 years to serve before he becomes eligible for parole. Some of his relatives, fearing an early discharge, have already left New Zealand and are living abroad. Not only fear of repetiton of the crime, but its pitiful nature and the ghosts of the scene-also the state of the house-have taken a hidden toll. For many months after the trial members of the jury and police both men and women who were at the scene continued to experience nightmares in flashback, despite trauma counselling. Some still do.

For a time David Bain wrote many letters of complaint from prison to the authorities in Wellington. He has settled down and is said by the governor of Paparua Prison to have become a model inmate. The reaction to prison lags to newcomers can be revealing. At Paparua David met with savage humour after arriving from Dunedin. The inmates' response is best summed up by a conversation between the convicted child-abuser Peter Ellis, and David Bain in a wing of the prison. At a chance meeting in a corridor, the following exchange reportedly occurred:

"Hullo David."

"Hullo Peter."

"David, I'll be your friend. But please don't treat me as family."

By most accounts David Bain has now begun to accept that he is in "for the long haul"; he makes phone calls, writes letters, wears out batteries listening to recordings of opera sent by his supporters and friends. His supporters include students, university lecturers, journalists, spiritualists, Christian groups, nurses, housewives. In letters to friends he expresses a faith in Christianity and Jesus. In a magazine article published in August 1996 he excuses his mother for treating his father so badly. He discusses a family in trouble but in such a way -Laniet: "a wonderful loving sister...She was very dear to me"-that the image that is projected remains sanitised.

There are stirrings of self-pity in his letters. But one listens in vain for a voice of grieving, of conscience, of torment, of genuine bewilderment. He feels sorrow. but the sorrow is delivered in the flat monotone of the witness box, devoid of inflection and without a hint of understanding of what life might mean to others. Feeling, like the moral sense, remains absent. Remorse appears beyond him.

Since you believe David Bain and Marty Tankleff are guilty and Hanratty was innocent when evidence suggests the opposite in all those cases i am starting to think your belief in Jeremy's guilt is an indicator of innocence.

[Steve_uk]

Since you believe David Bain and Marty Tankleff are guilty and Hanratty was innocent when evidence suggests the opposite in all those cases i am starting to think your belief in Jeremy's guilt is an indicator of innocence.

Marty Tankleff fits the psychological profile of both David Bain and Jeremy Bamber-no reaction whatsoever to the deaths they caused. Hanratty was an Establishment cover-up but it's impossible to prove.

I could quote another three pages of the Bain case showing more or less exactly how the plan was executed, but I don't wish to bore people..

[Jane]

The excuse that the Bambers gave for sending away Jeremy, namely that one day later in life he would have to employ locals and been seen to be in some way superior to them may or may not have been legitimate, but how could they possibly justify doing the same to Sheila, or was the cat let out of the bag that they weren't really interested in parenting, preferring to delegate this role to any paid factotum who came readily to hand..

Steve, sending children away to board was very much the accepted thing in the generation of (some) parents whose children are now in their mid 50's. It's a measure of how boys were supposed to follow on from their fathers when one hears that they can't be allowed to befriend those local children who they may need to employ further down the line -I've had many differences of opinion with such men. Their wives may have deferred to them. I certainly did not. There is also the point that many of these fathers  LOVED being "away" so assumed their children would. There are also those who hated it but sent their children to "their" school anyway because "it's what one does."

Girls are thought to benefit because they -allegedly-  meet a better class of girl who may just have a brother with a title, marriage, a good one financially, for that generation, being the goal. I have to say that Sheila was the only one (locally) who seemed NOT to achieve at anything. All the others -of my acquaintance- eventually came good even after a "lapse" and settled down to be the same community spirited women as their mothers before them.

I have known some of these mothers to shed copious tears when their children went away, but on the whole, they led such busy lives that it's hard to know how, and where, their children would have fitted in.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, sending children away to board was very much the accepted thing in the generation of (some) parents whose children are now in their mid 50's. It's a measure of how boys were supposed to follow on from their fathers when one hears that they can't be allowed to befriend those local children who they may need to employ further down the line -I've had many differences of opinion with such men. Their wives may have deferred to them. I certainly did not. There is also the point that many of these fathers  LOVED being "away" so assumed their children would. There are also those who hated it but sent their children to "their" school anyway because "it's what one does."

Girls are thought to benefit because they -allegedly-  meet a better class of girl who may just have a brother with a title, marriage, a good one financially, for that generation, being the goal. I have to say that Sheila was the only one (locally) who seemed NOT to achieve at anything. All the others -of my acquaintance- eventually came good even after a "lapse" and settled down to be the same community spirited women as their mothers before them.

I have known some of these mothers to shed copious tears when their children went away, but on the whole, they led such busy lives that it's hard to know how, and where, their children would have fitted in.

I wonder if there was a feeling of resentment on the part of June as Sheila blossomed into a beautiful young teeange girl, with seemingly the world at her feet. Nevill, for his part, could not hide the disappointment as to how Jeremy was shaping up and after the death of his second sister reverted into his own comfortable world of yesteryear, not once offering any word of encouragement as his son left Gresham's with very little to add to his name.

[maggie]

The excuse that the Bambers gave for sending away Jeremy, namely that one day later in life he would have to employ locals and been seen to be in some way superior to them may or may not have been legitimate, but how could they possibly justify doing the same to Sheila, or was the cat let out of the bag that they weren't really interested in parenting, preferring to delegate this role to any paid factotum who came readily to hand..

Nevill was sent away to school at a young age, I would imagine it's what people of his social standing did. He no doubt believed it made a man of him. 
I can't square the thought they didn't want to parent the children with the fact June took food up to Sheila in London every week, and they seemed to be concerned and giving support to her until they all died.