Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?

[scipio_usmc]

The problem though,Scipio is her job as a primary school teacher,where one might think that someone in such a profession has an empathy with human nature,and whether she has reached her elevated status subsequently through dint of hard work or cerebral competency one cannot maintain the defence of simpleton,however juvenile she may have been at the time.

In an ideal world people would hate all criminals and immediately would inform upon any and all criminals they were aware of regardless of whether it is a family member, loved one or friend.  We don't live in an ideal world though.  We live in a world where people look the other way and even try to help their friends/loved ones avoid liability even going so far as to helping dispose of bodies.

People who like Jeremy and/or don't like Julie are letting their feelings get in the way of  a rational objective evaluation of her testimony. I have no need to defend her behavior to assess whether her claims are credible anymore than I need to justify why someone helped cut up a body and dispose of hit to help a friend.  Of course helping cut up and dispose of a body is wrong.  That doesn't mean if someone admits they helped do so that it didn't happen.  You have to look at he claim itself to evaluate whether it is true that a body was cut up and disposed of. Saying one would have to be a slime ball to help and you don't believe the person is enough of a slime ball so it must be a lie doesn't work anymore than saying Julie would have to be a slime ball to stay with him and you don't think she is enough of a slime ball to do that but is enough of a slime ball to have made up ridiculous lies. 

[scipio_usmc]

He told her about his drugs crimes and even recruited her for them and he let her know about his theft of the caravan site.  he thus trusted her.  It is thus easy to see how he could trust her with his desire to kill his family.  She didn't rat him out after he told her of his plans o burn it down and each time he spoke to her she didn't betray his confidence so he trusted her.

That was big of him,since she acted as lookout on the sea wall.

He trusted her to involve her as lookout.  That is the whole point- he trusted her.

[scipio_usmc]

Analysis of Julie's claims:

1) is it credible that Jeremy would plan to kill his family
2) is it credible Jeremy would trust Julie enough to complain to her about his family and tell Julie of his plans
3) is it credible Julie would listen and not tell anyone
4) is it credible Julie would not rat him out immediately upon finding out he carried the plan out
5) is it credible upon finding out he had carried it out that Julie would stay with him nearly a month before breaking up with him
6) would Julie have a reason to make up the story and tell such to her friend
7) would Julie have a reason to make up the story and repeat the story to police after her friend told the police about it

The answer to 1-5 is yes.  The answer to 6 is no she would not have any reason to make up the hit man story and tell such to her friend.  The answer to 7 is she certainly would not make up such for attention then to repeat it to police and for good measure.  If her goal was to try to get him in trouble she would have gone to police directly about his bad deeds which unquestionably he did.  If she were going to make up the killing o add to such actual bad things she would have simply made that he admitted he personally killed all the victims.  She would not have made up anything about a hit man herself and it is unlikely she would be able to make up the level of detail she did about all the times he talked to her about planning to kill them. Making up all such conversations including misunderstanding about the sleeping pills and certainly would not be likely.  She had no motive to make up things to rat him out.  Breaking up over the killings did provide a motive to stop protecting him though when police came calling.   

The fact she admitted to numerous bad acts that police never would have otherwise known about and had no way at all to prove on their own is another factor. The characterization as police getting dirt on her then flipped her in exchange for immunity is sheer nonsense.  They had no evidence to establish she used drugs, sold drugs or did anything else prior to her admitting such to them while ratting Jeremy out.

[maggie]

I don't buy for one second that your past support of Jeremy doesn't affect how you view Julie.  If your views were objective you would be able to articulate the reasons why her claims are not credible.  Your views seem to have formed based upon your views of Jeremy's innocence. 

Claims that police got her to lie for them are absurd and claims she decided to frame him out of anger that they broke up fare no better. These are the only reasons why she would lie to frame him.

If she were trying to frame Jeremy she would have simply stated he confessed to killing them himself.  She would not make up a hitman claim let alone name someone who would be able to establish the claim false. This alone makes it obvious she didn't make the claims up. But the fact her claims about the Caravan breakin were corroborated and the level of details she provided about when he told her he wanted to kill them is such that it is not likely she made it up.

Anytime I ask people to explain why they think Julie lied I get the runaround and essentially reading between the lines they say it is just their gut feeling nothing more.  Gut feelings definitely involve how one views Jeremy.

I have not said I believe police got Julie to lie for them, I have my own opinions about Julie Mugfird, you are just making assumptions.
You seem to have a need to shoot down in flames anyone who disagrees with your rigid, unimaginative opinions.
People are not robots, they are much more random than you give them credit for.
I agree facts speak for themselves but if some of the facts are not known or have been overlooked you don't have the true picture therefore you form your opinion on a false or half truth.
You seem to want to diminish anyone who won't agree with your 'truth' but that shows you as obsessive and domineering rather than a rational thinker. 
I am not a 'sheep' I'm capable of original thought when I'm interested enough to bother, repeating the same old, same old stuff over and over is unoriginal and tedious imo.

[Caroline]

I have not said I believe police got Julie to lie for them, I have my own opinions about Julie Mugfird, you are just making assumptions.
You seem to have a need to shoot down in flames anyone who disagrees with your rigid, unimaginative opinions.
People are not robots, they are much more random than you give them credit for.
I agree facts speak for themselves but if some of the facts are not known or have been overlooked you don't have the true picture therefore you form your opinion on a false or half truth.
You seem to want to diminish anyone who won't agree with your 'truth' but that shows you as obsessive and domineering rather than a rational thinker. 
I am not a 'sheep' I'm capable of original thought when I'm interested enough to bother, repeating the same old, same old stuff over and over is unoriginal and tedious imo.

I would have to agree with this 100% - I think there are lots that people might want to say, but the laws of libel can often prevent someone giving a full, frank reasoned opinion. 

[notsure]

Ok so he had been telling her for months of his dislike for his family and his plans to get rid of them, but she didnt really believe he meant it, all of a sudden they were dead and he told her he hired a hitman to do it.

initial reaction for any normal human geing would be OH  MY God  hes done it. SHE WOULD OR SHOULD Hve been utterly petrified and told the police what he had been saying all that time. Bloody hell who wojld have stuck around after that     certainly no one i know would have.

doesnt make sense.

[lookout]

We have only JM's word that Jeremy said these things,apart from deliberations between witnesses that he'd allegedly said it to RWB as well.

[maggie]

Ok so he had been telling her for months of his dislike for his family and his plans to get rid of them, but she didnt really believe he meant it, all of a sudden they were dead and he told her he hired a hitman to do it.

initial reaction for any normal human geing would be OH  MY God  hes done it. SHE WOULD OR SHOULD Hve been utterly petrified and told the police what he had been saying all that time. Bloody hell who wojld have stuck around after that     certainly no one i know would have.

doesnt make sense.

It makes sense if she was part of it,     I felt as you do that Julie's behaviour was really strange and wondered if she had a personality disorder of some kind because even if JB was innocent and she framed him how could she believe that anyone would see her behaviour as normal?  It's shocking imo that she stayed the weekend at Colin's if she believed Jeremy was responsible for the boy's deaths and it's very weird for her to believe she could claim the high ground by saying she did such a thing even if she didn't.  No decent person could ever find an excuse for such behaviour imo. 

[lookout]

 I think Julie had a background of instability.Weren't her parents separated/divorced ? Didn't Julie say how cruel her father used to be ?Hadn't she also been a victim of a rape crime while on holiday somewhere ? If any of this is true it would account for her behaviour. Then Jeremy with his womanising ways was the final straw when she thought that her life was made. How bitter she must have felt

[scipio_usmc]

I would have to agree with this 100% - I think there are lots that people might want to say, but the laws of libel can often prevent someone giving a full, frank reasoned opinion.

Opinion can't be the basis of a slander claim.  Slander is based upon someone publishing a factual claim that the person knows to be false or is made with a reckless disregard for the truth. 

People saying they can't articulate in full what they think of Julie because they might be guilty of slander is simply a cop out.

[Steve_uk]

Moving on from the locked threads here is a smattering of Jeremy's thoughts as Christmas approaches: https://youtu.be/5oMUs5EjbF8

..and here are Colin's:

I realized there were going to be occasions when I would miss the boys more than any other. The obvious ones like Christmas and our birthdays were almost too painful to think about. Fortunately,I had that wonderful family of friends to take the sting out of my grief and loneliness that first Christmas. There were other times,however,when the memories would sneak up and I found myself,unexpectedly,in situations where I couldn't avoid my desolation and missed the boys desperately.

When it snowed that February,I wandered up to Highgate to visit the grave on my own. The snow was that lovely powdery type that sparkles in the sunlight. I needn't have had any fears about not finding the site under all that snow because as I came to the bottom of the hill,I was greeted by a sight that made me roar with laughter.

Standing in front of the grave was the loveliest snowman I had ever seen. He wasn't tall by snowman standards,about two feet at the most,had a broad,cheeky smile on his face,and an upside-down flowerpot with a red rose stuck in the hole,on his head. I was once again overjoyed at people's sensitivity to the way the boys would have liked to be remembered;it didn't surprise me later to learn it was Herbie.

On my way home,I passed Hampstead Heath and decided to stop for a walk in the snow. The sun had come out,lighting up the scene with lovely pale colours contrasted by a deep blue sky and dark silhouettes of the trees. The scene was reassuring,like a Christmas card,but my dream was quickly shattered by the squeals of laughter coming from the happy families playing in the snow,throwing snowballs at each other and racing down hills on makeshift toboggans. All of a sudden,vivid memories of Daniel and Nicholas sprang to mind and I desperately wanted to join in the fun and be part of a family again. Knowing I couldn't,I began to wish the snow would go away.

[maggie]

Moving on from the locked threads here is a smattering of Jeremy's thoughts as Christmas approaches: https://youtu.be/5oMUs5EjbF8

..and here are Colin's:

I realized there were going to be occasions when I would miss the boys more than any other. The obvious ones like Christmas and our birthdays were almost too painful to think about. Fortunately,I had that wonderful family of friends to take the sting out of my grief and loneliness that first Christmas. There were other times,however,when the memories would sneak up and I found myself,unexpectedly,in situations where I couldn't avoid my desolation and missed the boys desperately.

When it snowed that February,I wandered up to Highgate to visit the grave on my own. The snow was that lovely powdery type that sparkles in the sunlight. I needn't have had any fears about not finding the site under all that snow because as I came to the bottom of the hill,I was greeted by a sight that made me roar with laughter.

Standing in front of the grave was the loveliest snowman I had ever seen. He wasn't tall by snowman standards,about two feet at the most,had a broad,cheeky smile on his face,and an upside-down flowerpot with a red rose stuck in the hole,on his head. I was once again overjoyed at people's sensitivity to the way the boys would have liked to be remembered;it didn't surprise me later to learn it was Herbie.

On my way home,I passed Hampstead Heath and decided to stop for a walk in the snow. The sun had come out,lighting up the scene with lovely pale colours contrasted by a deep blue sky and dark silhouettes of the trees. The scene was reassuring,like a Christmas card,but my dream was quickly shattered by the squeals of laughter coming from the happy families playing in the snow,throwing snowballs at each other and racing down hills on makeshift toboggans. All of a sudden,vivid memories of Daniel and Nicholas sprang to mind and I desperately wanted to join in the fun and be part of a family again. Knowing I couldn't,I began to wish the snow would go away.

Thank you Steve, that is so beautiful and so poignant.

[Jane]

Thank you Steve, that is so beautiful and so poignant.

And achingly painful.

[Steve_uk]

The next extract puts the fuss about Jeremy's Christmas meal in perspective:

Back home,and terribly distressed,I played a recording Bernie had made of the boys some months before the shootings-which I had only just heard for the first time-listening,over and over again,to one point in particular. It had been by sheer coincidence that while Daniel was talking ,a report on the Ethiopian famine was broadcast on the television news. His reaction to what he saw was so innocent and so perfect:

"Why are the children crying?" said Daniel.

"If you went without food for a couple of days you'd be crying" said Bernie; "they've been a couple of weeks."

"Oh gosh!" said Daniel. "But how can they die without food".

Bernie explained. "Well, if you don't eat food you die. You need food and you need water. There,look,that one's dying!"
 
"Oh yes," said Daniel,who paused and then slowly added,"Poor little mites." Pleading for a satisfactory answer to the whole world's problems,he finally said,"Well I don't know what's happened. I don't know why they should die like that,do you?"

[lookout]

Moving on from the locked threads here is a smattering of Jeremy's thoughts as Christmas approaches: https://youtu.be/5oMUs5EjbF8

..and here are Colin's:

I realized there were going to be occasions when I would miss the boys more than any other. The obvious ones like Christmas and our birthdays were almost too painful to think about. Fortunately,I had that wonderful family of friends to take the sting out of my grief and loneliness that first Christmas. There were other times,however,when the memories would sneak up and I found myself,unexpectedly,in situations where I couldn't avoid my desolation and missed the boys desperately.

When it snowed that February,I wandered up to Highgate to visit the grave on my own. The snow was that lovely powdery type that sparkles in the sunlight. I needn't have had any fears about not finding the site under all that snow because as I came to the bottom of the hill,I was greeted by a sight that made me roar with laughter.

Standing in front of the grave was the loveliest snowman I had ever seen. He wasn't tall by snowman standards,about two feet at the most,had a broad,cheeky smile on his face,and an upside-down flowerpot with a red rose stuck in the hole,on his head. I was once again overjoyed at people's sensitivity to the way the boys would have liked to be remembered;it didn't surprise me later to learn it was Herbie.

On my way home,I passed Hampstead Heath and decided to stop for a walk in the snow. The sun had come out,lighting up the scene with lovely pale colours contrasted by a deep blue sky and dark silhouettes of the trees. The scene was reassuring,like a Christmas card,but my dream was quickly shattered by the squeals of laughter coming from the happy families playing in the snow,throwing snowballs at each other and racing down hills on makeshift toboggans. All of a sudden,vivid memories of Daniel and Nicholas sprang to mind and I desperately wanted to join in the fun and be part of a family again. Knowing I couldn't,I began to wish the snow would go away.

I wouldn't/couldn't cope in either situation. I was bad enough watching Children in Need last night.