Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?

[lookout]

Lookout, I think it highly likely that -like many dreamy young girls believe that if only they could get married, life would be perfect- June had believed that a baby was the answer to her having a perfect life. That's a dangerous mind set for ANY woman, not to mention that it puts on the unborn -unCONCEIVED- child, the onus and responsibility for the mother's future happiness and well being.

So June gets her wish. I can only think that, for some reason, Sheila wasn't EXACTLY what June's previous, fantasy child had been. However young she may have been, Sheila WOULD have sensed this and would have responded accordingly. It would have been a relationship disaster for both mother and child. I feel perfectly certain that Sheila would have been entirely unaware of the reasons why she may have felt rejected by June. She would only have felt that no matter what she did -as far as her mother was concerned- it was never quite right................and that was probably on a good day. It's highly likely that June blamed Sheila's difficulty in/refusal to do what was "right" for her delicate mental health........................

..................This, however, is in NO way unique and isn't the prerogative of the adopted child/mother relationship. It's something prominent in ALL relationships in which the parent puts its' own expectations of their child before what may be in their child's best interests.

My main argument is that June must have been really ill to have warranted ECT treatment,not once but twice. It's possible that she may not have responded to medication that made the treatment necessary as at one time ECT was the last resort.I don't know whether that still stands today,but all I'm saying is that like it or not she was a very sick woman who towards the end of her life had seemingly relapsed given the amount of appointments she'd had to visit her GP latterly.
It certainly wasn't Sheila's fault that June was totally unsuitable and had taken her on. I'm afraid she wouldn't have passed the criteria today with everything going through the right and proper channels of adoption.

[maggie]

I do understand what you're saying,Maggie.
I've studied how June would have felt too at not being able to conceive and the impact that would have had on her mental state. Actually being told to any woman is devastating and its effects can have an everlasting effect especially and probably more so when there's a business to consider,heirs.
We don't know how June took the tragic news but it reflected in her ability to cope and accept her problem which further came to light when Sheila was only eight months old when June had to be treated in hospital which led to her admission as an in-patient for a spell.
I wonder if June had ever wished that she'd bore/borne Sheila herself,that her inability to conceive would have come to the fore aggravating her thoughts.June may have blamed herself,or as her mother used to say " the devil at work ".
Over time and because of June's delicate state of mental health,another visit to the hospital was called for and a second ECT administered to try and improve her mind and block out all past thoughts which were taking over her mind. June was quite a sick person to have had such treatment. I used to think it was a cruel treatment,but the patients who underwent it were pretty unwell.
If anyone should have known about Sheila's moods and behaviour it should have been June having suffered depression herself.

I have lived it Lookout and I don't believe June necessarily though any of that. 

I believe Sheila was ill either because she was genetically programmed that way or because her trauma before she got to WHF was profound enough to have caused her to be unable to bond deeply with June or any other primary carer.  There certainly was conflict, I would imagine Sheila was probably a conundrum to June as much because of the way the world had changed since June's upbringing as much anything else.  June was said to be very strong minded or controlling, depending on how you look at it and there was bound to be difficulties. 
It is quite probable that Sheila had a genetic tendency towards schizophrenia which was exacerbated by her adoption and difficulties to bond properly with June but I don't really know, it's all just speculation. I cannot believe that June didn't love Sheila however much 'at sea' she may have been when trying to deal with her.  Natural children are not always carbon copies of their parents, one can be like great, great uncle somebody who burned the local church down or whatever.  Think all parents hope for the best but they don't always get it and most people muddle through.  Sheila's illness definitely would have made relationships very difficult for her.
I agree that June seemed to be ill equipped to deal with children whether natural or adopted due to her own difficulties but I still feel she is harshly treated because of her own mental health problems, she definitely didn't kill anyone and had a dreadful death imo and yet at times she seems to be blamed for the whole catastrophic disaster.  I have no idea what June was like as a person but I feel for her, maybe I'm biased because she's a fellow adoptive mother and I make no apologies for this.

[Jane]

My main argument is that June must have been really ill to have warranted ECT treatment,not once but twice. It's possible that she may not have responded to medication that made the treatment necessary as at one time ECT was the last resort.I don't know whether that still stands today,but all I'm saying is that like it or not she was a very sick woman who towards the end of her life had seemingly relapsed given the amount of appointments she'd had to visit her GP latterly.
It certainly wasn't Sheila's fault that June was totally unsuitable and had taken her on. I'm afraid she wouldn't have passed the criteria today with everything going through the right and proper channels of adoption.

Lookout, at one time it was the standard treatment given for depression. By the end of June's life it had more or less been jettisoned in favour of "new generations" of anti depressants. Perhaps you could post the dates of her doctors' appointments during her last year.

I agree there are much more stringent rules these days regarding adoption.

[maggie]

Lookout, at one time it was the standard treatment given for depression. By the end of June's life it had more or less been jettisoned in favour of "new generations" of anti depressants. Perhaps you could post the dates of her doctors' appointments during her last year.

I agree there are much more stringent rules these days regarding adoption.

I remember a woman who used to request some more ECT  every so often when her mood became very low and she would go off to hospital for a few weeks and come back a different woman, that would be in very early 80s.  So it was still quite common at that time.
I agree the development of Prosac changed the treatment of depression forever, don't know if ECT is still used but if it is it would now be in very extreme cases.

[lookout]

Lookout, at one time it was the standard treatment given for depression. By the end of June's life it had more or less been jettisoned in favour of "new generations" of anti depressants. Perhaps you could post the dates of her doctors' appointments during her last year.

I agree there are much more stringent rules these days regarding adoption.

I'm not sure of dates for her last appointments but Jeremy had said in his statement that she'd been seeing the GP " for ages/weeks " leading up to the tragedy.

[Jane]

I remember a woman who used to request some more ECT  every so often when her mood became very low and she would go off to hospital for a few weeks and come back a different woman, that would be in very early 80s.  So it was still quite common at that time.
I agree the development of Prosac changed the treatment of depression forever, don't know if ECT is still used but if it is it would now be in very extreme cases.

It was very much OUT of favour by the mid 90's, Maggie, Prosac being the new -hero- kid on the block. I had a friend whose brother was treated with ECT as a result of the war. She maintained he was a completely different person after treatment. I refrained from telling her that they'd probably fried that part of the brain responsible for the nightmares/memories. I suppose ECT was marginally better than frontal lobotomy.

[Jane]

I'm not sure of dates for her last appointments but Jeremy had said in his statement that she'd been seeing the GP " for ages/weeks " leading up to the tragedy.

As he didn't live at WHF, Lookout, his accuracy regarding appointment times has to be questionable.

[maggie]

It was very much OUT of favour by the mid 90's, Maggie, Prosac being the new -hero- kid on the block. I had a friend whose brother was treated with ECT as a result of the war. She maintained he was a completely different person after treatment. I refrained from telling her that they'd probably fried that part of the brain responsible for the nightmares/memories. I suppose ECT was marginally better than frontal lobotomy.

I know it was a horrible treatment but for some it worked.  It lifted the misery of depression for some.   I have had my moments but have never suffered deep totally debilitating depression which must be a dreadful black hole to live in.

[lookout]

As he didn't live at WHF, Lookout, his accuracy regarding appointment times has to be questionable.

He was there every day working though,so would have known.

[Jane]

He was there every day working though,so would have known.

He'd have been working in the fields, not in the house. If he saw her car going out would he have asked her where she'd been when she returned? Most parents don't give adult children running commentaries about their movements.

[lookout]

I know it was a horrible treatment but for some it worked.  It lifted the misery of depression for some.   I have had my moments but have never suffered deep totally debilitating depression which must be a dreadful black hole to live in.

The women I used to see going to theatre were in a bad way Maggie. It was terrible to see.When I think back it was a damned awful place with cells for the violent ones,a padded cell and an open ward for those with depression and dementia all within the department I worked on and it was hard going.

[maggie]

The women I used to see going to theatre were in a bad way Maggie. It was terrible to see.When I think back it was a damned awful place with cells for the violent ones,a padded cell and an open ward for those with depression and dementia all within the department I worked on and it was hard going.

I couldn't have done it, I'm in no doubt of that, Lookout.

[lookout]

He'd have been working in the fields, not in the house. If he saw her car going out would he have asked her where she'd been when she returned? Most parents don't give adult children running commentaries about their movements.

He most likely did ask where his mother was if her car was missing. He obviously knew or wouldn't have mentioned it.It's not something you make up.

[lookout]

I couldn't have done it, I'm in no doubt of that, Lookout.

I remember transferring a patient to Winwick Mental Hospital ( if it's still there ) and the patient was all trussed up like a turkey ( restrained ) I can't remember offhand why the transfer but I was glad when we got there. The place was in Warrington.

[maggie]

I remember transferring a patient to Winwick Mental Hospital ( if it's still there ) and the patient was all trussed up like a turkey ( restrained ) I can't remember offhand why the transfer but I was glad when we got there. The place was in Warrington.

How awful,Lookout.  I woukd guess you were very young then as well.