Ending the SJ/1 nonsense once and for all

[scipio_usmc]

I do wonder why Jones didn't know who had found the silencer when (according to AE), he had spent several hours drinking with PE at the Eaton's house when he went to collect it. Surely the story of the find was relayed to him at some point?

Ann Eaton didn't say hours she said he spent quite some time there.  She had no idea how much earlier than her he had arrived it could have been only a few minutes. He was already at Oak Farm when she got home.  Shortly after she got home she had to run to White house Farm because the alarm had gone off.  He only saw him for a short while and had no idea how long he was there.

Jones didn't think the moderator held any value.  Only after the lab said it had human blood and paint did he recognize a value.  So he didn't particularly care about it he said that he was placating the family by smoozing with them and probably was secretly trying to get information from them that he himself though would be useful.  He didn't end up getting anything from Eaton though as Eaton didn't really know anything of value. Eaton wasn't even at WHF when the moderator was found so would not be of much use anyway in explaining the full details of how it was found and by whom.

After the lab reported the significance then police had to go establish the details of who found it and when and the chaing of custody till handed to police and had the witnesses include such in statements.  At that point they found out Boutflour was the one who found them and decided to amend all the exhibits found by Boutflour to reflect such so changed the following all together:

SBJ/1 to DB/1
AE/1 (scope) to DB/2
AE/2 (.22 ammunition in abu bag) to DB/3
HGO/1 (Raker shotgun ammo) to DB/4

They had not established the trail of any of these items at the time of collection they found out later when interviewing the parties to determine the finding of such items and change of custody.

 



 

[lookout]

Members of the jury had been led to believe that only one silencer had been found------------yet years later,it was known that at least 5 silencers had been taken from WHF after the murders. Naturally there would have been,given the amount of guns/rifles that were kept at the farmhouse.

[scipio_usmc]

Members of the jury had been led to believe that only one silencer had been found------------yet years later,it was known that at least 5 silencers had been taken from WHF after the murders. Naturally there would have been,given the amount of guns/rifles that were kept at the farmhouse.

As usual you have no idea what you are talking about.  There was 1 moderator at WHF- the one owned by Nevill. 

The only other moderators the police took were the personal moderators owned by the Boutflours and the mdoerator owned by AP.  They took AP's moderator to examine during the COLP investigation.  They took the Boutflour's personal moderators during the trial so that if the defense made the suggestion that Nevill lost his moderator before the murders and Boutflour put his own moderator in the closet then the prosecution would produce the other two and say here are the moderators owned by the Boutflours so the defense's suggestion is bogus.

 

[scipio_usmc]

I agree, the silencer story seems very flimsy and unconvincing whichever angle you view it from it seems contrived and badly executed. I am not convinced about the silencer.

That is because you are biased.  To an objective person there is no way to undermine the moderator evidence and that is why Jeremy lost his appeals.

When someone is convicted the defense is deseperate to make any allegations they can even ridiculous ones. That resulted in the nonsense claim of multiple moderators being doctored and so forth based on the changed designations.

If the family or the police were going to doctor evidence they would not doctor multiple moderators.  They would take Nevill's moderator and doctor it. SO the allegations never made sense even before investigating the designation changes.

Then when one looks at the designation changes one finds that the references to DB/1 didn't exist until the very end of September or October.  The evidence shows that after police determined that 4 items were found by Boutflour they decided to have the prefix for these items reflec tit.  3 different prefixes were used for these items thus giving no clue that all were found by the same person let alone all found by Boutflour.

SBJ/1 was redesignated DB/1
AE/1 was redesignated DB/2
AE/2 was redesignated DB/3
HGO/1 was redesignated DB/4

It is indisputable that David Bird had already logged his exhibits under the DB prefix and that there were already exhibits DB/1-4 in the case. 

That forced the administrative personal to redesignate the Boutflour exhibits.  They chose to add Boutflour's middle initial and thus to redesignate them DRB/1-4.

An objective person finds such evidence satisfactory and there is nothing about this which can be used to undermine the moderator evidence.

If one wants to make a claim that the evidence in the moderator was planted then one needs to find evidence to establish such and the redesignations don't provide any such evidence the redesignations have to be ignored if one is trying to find evidence of planting.  Not only are the explanations for the changes ironclad the allegations that multiple moderators were doctored is downright stupid and someone who alleges such sounds like a biased hack.  Advocates need their reputation intact when they are going to make arguments to a court.  Making absurd allegations will instantly deny them credibility.

Jeremy's lawyers knew the allegations were completely and totally refuted by the COLP investigation and thus made zero attempt to argue these issues before the CCRC.  These issues are used to try to fool the ignorant or to used by Jeremy supporters to try to justify their positions because they have nothing legitimate to raise.  It is therefore damaging to even bring up this because it demonstrates supporters have nothing legitimate to raise because if they did they they would not be raising nonsense.

[maggie]

That is because you are biased.  To an objective person there is no way to undermine the moderator evidence and that is why Jeremy lost his appeals.

When someone is convicted the defense is deseperate to make any allegations they can even ridiculous ones. That resulted in the nonsense claim of multiple moderators being doctored and so forth based on the changed designations.

If the family or the police were going to doctor evidence they would not doctor multiple moderators.  They would take Nevill's moderator and doctor it. SO the allegations never made sense even before investigating the designation changes.

Then when one looks at the designation changes one finds that the references to DB/1 didn't exist until the very end of September or October.  The evidence shows that after police determined that 4 items were found by Boutflour they decided to have the prefix for these items reflec tit.  3 different prefixes were used for these items thus giving no clue that all were found by the same person let alone all found by Boutflour.

SBJ/1 was redesignated DB/1
AE/1 was redesignated DB/2
AE/2 was redesignated DB/3
HGO/1 was redesignated DB/4

It is indisputable that David Bird had already logged his exhibits under the DB prefix and that there were already exhibits DB/1-4 in the case. 

That forced the administrative personal to redesignate the Boutflour exhibits.  They chose to add Boutflour's middle initial and thus to redesignate them DRB/1-4.

An objective person finds such evidence satisfactory and there is nothing about this which can be used to undermine the moderator evidence.

If one wants to make a claim that the evidence in the moderator was planted then one needs to find evidence to establish such and the redesignations don't provide any such evidence the redesignations have to be ignored if one is trying to find evidence of planting.  Not only are the explanations for the changes ironclad the allegations that multiple moderators were doctored is downright stupid and someone who alleges such sounds like a biased hack.  Advocates need their reputation intact when they are going to make arguments to a court.  Making absurd allegations will instantly deny them credibility.

Jeremy's lawyers knew the allegations were completely and totally refuted by the COLP investigation and thus made zero attempt to argue these issues before the CCRC.  These issues are used to try to fool the ignorant or to used by Jeremy supporters to try to justify their positions because they have nothing legitimate to raise.  It is therefore damaging to even bring up this because it demonstrates supporters have nothing legitimate to raise because if they did they they would not be raising nonsense.

No I am not biased, scipio and I am objective.

[Adam]

Jeremy focused on the moderator surprising late, as if it was a last resort. There were no claims of contamination or incorrect testing at trial.

He had nothing to lose by having further tests. Bad results can be hushed up and/or contamination claimed. Good results can be shouted from the rooftops.

[scipio_usmc]

No I am not biased, scipio and I am objective.

Then explain how the change in designations undermines the evidence found inside the moderator.  The only way one can argue such is if one argues evidence was planted in multiple moderators and there was  aneed to hide such.  That is what Mike keeps claiming but it makes zero sense on top of not having any evidence to support it.

Scenario:

I am hired to represent Jeremy.

I want to allege the blood evidence was planted but have nothing valid to raise so I allege the family planted paint and blood on moderator SBJ/1, the family subsequently planted even more blood in another moderator that was labeled DB/1 and then the police changed the designation to conceal evidence was planted on 2 different moderators.

What would the result be?

I would be humiliated because the reason for the change from DB/1 to DRB/1 is unassailable/.  It is an absolute fact there already was a DB/1 from David Bird and it is not permitted to have 2 exhibits using the same reference so one of them had to be changed.  They changed the newer one retaining the older designation for the item that already had it.

The reason given for changing SBJ/1 to DB/1 is a valid one and their is considerable evidence demonstrating they changed it for the reason stated including the fact they changed all 4 items found by Boutflour not merely the moderator. 

While they give a valid reason for the change and I have no evidence to refute that reason worse still- my allegations make no sense.  It makes zero sense for the family to plant evidence on 2 different moderators that would demonstrate to everyone that they had planted evidence on at least 1 of them because only one moderator would have been used to commit the murders.  If the police were going to plant evidence on a moderator within their possession they would plant it all on the same moderator not multiple moderators.  Since I have no evidence to refute the claims made by the witness as to why the changes occurred I would already not be able to prevail.  But since these allegations make no sense I would be a laughing stock if I claimed such to a Court.

On rare occasion people do absurd things and if you have proof that someone did something ludicrous then you present such to a court but you don't make absurd allegations that you can't prove because you look ridiculous and lose credibility with the judges.

[Adam]

As it happened the results were bad. So Jeremy blamed the testing methods !

[Caroline]

Members of the jury had been led to believe that only one silencer had been found------------yet years later,it was known that at least 5 silencers had been taken from WHF after the murders. Naturally there would have been,given the amount of guns/rifles that were kept at the farmhouse.

Lookout, they had one semi automatic rifle and ONE silencer. The rest were shot guns - don't think you can get a silence for a shot gun! 

[Caroline]

Ann Eaton didn't say hours she said he spent quite some time there.  She had no idea how much earlier than her he had arrived it could have been only a few minutes. He was already at Oak Farm when she got home.  Shortly after she got home she had to run to White house Farm because the alarm had gone off.  He only saw him for a short while and had no idea how long he was there.

Jones didn't think the moderator held any value.  Only after the lab said it had human blood and paint did he recognize a value.  So he didn't particularly care about it he said that he was placating the family by smoozing with them and probably was secretly trying to get information from them that he himself though would be useful.  He didn't end up getting anything from Eaton though as Eaton didn't really know anything of value. Eaton wasn't even at WHF when the moderator was found so would not be of much use anyway in explaining the full details of how it was found and by whom.

After the lab reported the significance then police had to go establish the details of who found it and when and the chaing of custody till handed to police and had the witnesses include such in statements.  At that point they found out Boutflour was the one who found them and decided to amend all the exhibits found by Boutflour to reflect such so changed the following all together:

SBJ/1 to DB/1
AE/1 (scope) to DB/2
AE/2 (.22 ammunition in abu bag) to DB/3
HGO/1 (Raker shotgun ammo) to DB/4

They had not established the trail of any of these items at the time of collection they found out later when interviewing the parties to determine the finding of such items and change of custody.

I can't believe that Jones didn't ask where it was found and who found it - especially the fuss made about it around the kitchen table just days before.

[scipio_usmc]

Jeremy focused on the moderator surprising late, as if it was a last resort. There were no claims of contamination or incorrect testing at trial.

He had nothing to lose by having further tests. Bad results can be hushed up and/or contamination claimed. Good results can be shouted from the rooftops.

The trial defense did the best they could to mitigate the moderator evidence.

Their expert confirmed the prosecution's claims he even found his own group A blood inside on the first 8 baffles.   

They had a choice of making no argument, claiming maybe someone planted it though they had nothing at all to suggest it was planted and thus the suggestion would not implicate reasonable doubt or asserting it was June and Nevill's blood and hope and pray the jury would be fooled into thinking this created reasonable doubt even though the expert said it was a remote possibility that could only happen if the blood had not intimately mixed but he did testing and could not find a way for blood in the moderator not to intimately mix.  The best they could do is hope the jury would get lost in the technical issues and thing it were possible for the blood to not intimately mix and be June and Nevill's and believe hat for some reason Sheila would have hid the moderator in the closet after killing everyone.

There was not much more they could do.   

Even on appeal they have found nothing to establish the evidence was planted on/in the moderator so have not made that allegation to the courts.  They made limited allegations which were withdrawn because they had no evidentiary basis to justify their allegations. These allegations are made for public consumption hoping the ignorant public will be more amenable than the fully informed courts.

The efforts to undermine the moderator evidence on appeal has been limited to technical issues not claims of planing evidence.  The technical issues raised though have fallen far short of proving anything.

[scipio_usmc]

I can't believe that Jones didn't ask where it was found and who found it - especially the fuss made about it around the kitchen table just days before.

Peter Eaton wasn't there when it was found so he didn't know thus if Jones did ask he could not answer.  If anything it sounded like Peter Eaton was trying to ply information from Jones with booze and Eaton told his brother in law afterwards that he wasn't impressed with him. So both of them were trying to get general information out of each other but neither succeeded. 

[Adam]

The trial defense did the best they could to mitigate the moderator evidence.

Their expert confirmed the prosecution's claims he even found his own group A blood inside on the first 8 baffles.   

They had a choice of making no argument, claiming maybe someone planted it though they had nothing at all to suggest it was planted and thus the suggestion would not implicate reasonable doubt or asserting it was June and Nevill's blood and hope and pray the jury would be fooled into thinking this created reasonable doubt even though the expert said it was a remote possibility that could only happen if the blood had not intimately mixed but he did testing and could not find a way for blood in the moderator not to intimately mix.  The best they could do is hope the jury would get lost in the technical issues and thing it were possible for the blood to not intimately mix and be June and Nevill's and believe hat for some reason Sheila would have hid the moderator in the closet after killing everyone.

There was not much more they could do.   

Even on appeal they have found nothing to establish the evidence was planted on/in the moderator so have not made that allegation to the courts.  They made limited allegations which were withdrawn because they had no evidentiary basis to justify their allegations. These allegations are made for public consumption hoping the ignorant public will be more amenable than the fully informed courts.

The efforts to undermine the moderator evidence on appeal has been limited to technical issues not claims of planing evidence.  The technical issues raised though have fallen far short of proving anything.

Where does it say the defence tried to discredit the moderator at trial ?

Wilkes's book has several chapters on the trial. There is not much mention of the moderator.

The judge saying it was certainly Sheila's blood, and the jury asking for the moderator evidence again, when deliberating. That's it.

[Adam]

I can't believe that Jones didn't ask where it was found and who found it - especially the fuss made about it around the kitchen table just days before.

It was found by one of the relatives. Inside WHF. Jones had given AE the keys. Were the details that important then ?

He may have asked who found it and where. All of that information would soon be common knowledge anyway.

[scipio_usmc]

Where does it say the defence tried to discredit the moderator at trial ?

Wilkes's book has several chapters on the trial. There is not much mention of the moderator.

The judge saying it was certainly Sheila's blood, and the jury asking for the moderator evidence again, when deliberating. That's it.

At trial the defense argued perhaps the blood inside the moderator belonged to June and Nevill and after killing everyone Sheila put the moderator in the closet and washed and changed before killing herself. 

This was their way of trying to refute the moderator evidence proved she was murdered by someone and also an attempt to explain away the lack of evidence on her clothing and body to indicate she had killed the others.