Police log contents, and position of bodies in photographs don't add up, CRIKEY.

[mike tesko]

By the police who said they were able to overtake him even though he had a sizable lead on them and even though he was only a mile from WHF at the time they passed his vehicle he took a long time to arrive and finally reach them.  At trial the defense suggested he pulled over to put on a jacket because he was cold and this is why he arrived later than they expected. 

The appeal decision even noted such:

"PS Bews, PC Myall and PC Saxby drove from Witham Police Station passing the appellant in his car on their way to the farm. He was travelling at a speed very much slower than their vehicle. Ann Eaton's evidence was that the appellant was normally "a very, very fast driver"."

The clear implication is he was not driving fast like he usually did because he wanted police to arrive first.   and see him arrive so they would think it takes him longer to travel to and from WHF than it truly does and to dissuade them from thinking he had been there all along.

On the telephone to the police, he was told to make his way to the scene where he would be met by police who had already been deployed. He was told not to approach the farmhouse alone if he arrived there before them, but instead wait there until they arrived - note that none of these instructions were recorded, in Ralph's phone log, timed at 3.26am...

[Jane]

On the telephone to the police, he was told to make his way to the scene where he would be met by police who had already been deployed. He was told not to approach the farmhouse alone if he arrived there before them, but instead wait there until they arrived - note that none of these instructions were recorded, in Ralph's phone log, timed at 3.26am...

No proof then that those words were ever said and getting there before the police wouldn't have meant that he had to go in. He could have followed alleged instructions and sat in the car and waited.

[scipio_usmc]

On the telephone to the police, he was told to make his way to the scene where he would be met by police who had already been deployed. He was told not to approach the farmhouse alone if he arrived there before them, but instead wait there until they arrived - note that none of these instructions were recorded, in Ralph's phone log, timed at 3.26am...

This is a perfect example of you asserting things not contained in the record.  West doesn't claim he said such to Jeremy and Jeremy didn't allege such in any of his statements, during his interrogation or even at trial. 

Instead the defense asserted he stopped to put on a jacket and this helped delay him.     

[scipio_usmc]

None of the officers used the wording "even though he had a sizable lead on them", so that's something you made up. Jeremy and the police didn't start their journeys at the same time. The police logs indicate the police left for WHF about 6 minutes before Jeremy left home (assuming that Jeremy left at roughly 3:41, a time consistent with a 3:42 entry in Pc West's log for a telephone line check that occurred shortly after Jeremy's call ended), which is consistent with them overtaking Jeremy where and when they did, as the police had further to travel and would have needed up to about 14 minutes, depending on their speed.

We don't need those time estimates, though, as all three officers in the police car estimated Jeremy's speed: two estimated it as about 30 mph, and one estimated it as not more than 30 mph. None of those officers had any reason to make an accurate mental note of how long Jeremy took to drive his final mile, but they estimated that it took him 3 to 4 minutes, which is only slightly longer than the 2 minutes it would have taken him at 30 mph.

The police were presumably travelling as fast as they safely could, so it's hardly surprising that Jeremy was travelling considerably slower - they weren't racing against each other, and reducing speed is a natural reaction to noticing that a police car is about to pass you at high speed.

Ann Eaton may well have known that Jeremy was normally "a very, very fast driver", but I doubt that she had any experience of being driven by Jeremy at around 4am. The circumstances were not "normal". There is no clear implication that Jeremy was driving unduly slowly for some special reason of his own.
The Appeal Court judgement makes no mention of this, so how do you know? The judgment states "The appellant's car arrived at the farmhouse 1-2 minutes after the police vehicle." It's unclear why it says this, as the relevant officers' statements say 3 to 4 minutes.

Your efforts smack of the usual desperation.

The police said they whiffed by a slow moving car.  They didn't say anything about the car being ahead of them for a period of time and them eventually deciding to pass it.  They simply drove, came across a car in their path that was slow moving and passed it by.

They estimated it was moving no more than 20MPH when he was passed:

/quote]

[scipio_usmc]

Okay,so Jeremy was known for putting his foot down normally. A show off. Always something lacking when a young man puts speed before anything else,but that's another theory/story. Because these young men feel the need for speed doesn't necessarily mean that their ordinary lives revolve around speed.In other words it was probably the only time that Jeremy put a spurt on when he was behind the wheel of a car,other than that he probably lounged around if he wasn't working,too idle to scratch himself.
However,being confronted about the unknown on the 7th of August,he probably had all kinds of things going through his mind,hence his reason for " crawling " along,plus,he didn't want to be seen overtaking a police car. If he'd bombed along at his normal speed it would have been wrong,in his mind,because as far as he was concerned at that point,he had no idea what had gone on. Nobody did,until hours later.

At the mention of his sister brandishing a gun,I don't think I'd have been in a hurry to have possibly been shot either. Jeremy was scared . He may have had visions of a rifle poking out of an open window,we don't know. He was being cautious and probably felt safe with the police around.
Even EP didn't make an attempt to barge along. In fact,what did they do for over 3 hours anyway ?
If Jeremy had gone like the clappers,shouting up at the farmhouse or through the letter box,he'd definitely have been shot,of that there's no doubt.
Even if Neville had phoned,saying that Sheila was shooting someone upstairs,Jeremy would only have gone so far.As it was,EP told him to hide behind a wall etc., so there was nothing he could have done.

Going as slow as he did is certainly not a punishable offence.Better to be a live coward than a dead hero.   

People normally speed to an emergency situation.  Jeremy was noted for speeding in general not just emergency situations.  Instead of speeding like normal he decided in this emergency situation to take it very slow.  That is SUSPICIOUS.

He didn't rush over or call 999 he called Julie and after a while looked up police numbers casually that is SUSPICIOUS.

He didn't knock on the door , try to look in the windows or try to get the police to do these things- that is SUSPICIOUS.

He was very calm and not worried- that is SUSPICIOUS given his claims.

He lied about Sheila firing all weapons in the house and being competent in their use- that is SUSPICIOUS.

He lied about leaving the gun and bullets int he kitchen- that is SUSPICIOUS.

He didn't call Pam or any of the other relatives to tell them there was trouble so they could come to be with him which would give him comfort but also because they had a right to know.  That is SUSPICIOUS.

When you add all the evidence in with these suspicious things you see why the suspicious things were done.

[Jane]

Okay,so Jeremy was known for putting his foot down normally. A show off. Always something lacking when a young man puts speed before anything else,but that's another theory/story. Because these young men feel the need for speed doesn't necessarily mean that their ordinary lives revolve around speed.In other words it was probably the only time that Jeremy put a spurt on when he was behind the wheel of a car,other than that he probably lounged around if he wasn't working,too idle to scratch himself.
However,being confronted about the unknown on the 7th of August,he probably had all kinds of things going through his mind,hence his reason for " crawling " along,plus,he didn't want to be seen overtaking a police car. If he'd bombed along at his normal speed it would have been wrong,in his mind,because as far as he was concerned at that point,he had no idea what had gone on. Nobody did,until hours later.

At the mention of his sister brandishing a gun,I don't think I'd have been in a hurry to have possibly been shot either. Jeremy was scared . He may have had visions of a rifle poking out of an open window,we don't know. He was being cautious and probably felt safe with the police around.
Even EP didn't make an attempt to barge along. In fact,what did they do for over 3 hours anyway ?
If Jeremy had gone like the clappers,shouting up at the farmhouse or through the letter box,he'd definitely have been shot,of that there's no doubt.
Even if Neville had phoned,saying that Sheila was shooting someone upstairs,Jeremy would only have gone so far.As it was,EP told him to hide behind a wall etc., so there was nothing he could have done.

Going as slow as he did is certainly not a punishable offence.Better to be a live coward than a dead hero.   

You maybe missing my point here. The police knew nothing of Jeremy's liking of speed, which under the circumstances would have been appropriate even if he'd slowed down to let the police go first. Are you really suggesting that the great coward would have let Sheila kill her -and HIS- family without lifting a finger?

[mike tesko]

No proof then that those words were ever said and getting there before the police wouldn't have meant that he had to go in. He could have followed alleged instructions and sat in the car and waited.

Don't jump the gun, information recorded elsewhere confirms that that was what Jeremy was told to do. The facts are that Police told Jeremy to go himself to the scene, he was told that he would be met there by police, he was told that police had already been deployed, he was told that in the event he should arrive at the scene before police arrived there, that under no circumstances should he approach the farmhouse alone but to wait until they got there. None of this was mentioned in Ralph Bambers 3.26am phone log, but as an afterthought, police did record the details of the "sons call", made 10 minutes later (3.36am)...

[Jane]

Don't jump the gun, information recorded elsewhere confirms that that was what Jeremy was told to do. The facts are that Police told Jeremy to go himself to the scene, he was told that he would be met there by police, he was told that police had already been deployed, he was told that in the event he should arrive at the scene before police arrived there, that under no circumstances should he approach the farmhouse alone but to wait until they got there. None of this was mentioned in Ralph Bambers 3.26am phone log, but as an afterthought, police did record the details of the "sons call", made 10 minutes later (3.36am)...

Mike, if they DID give him all that information during a 3.36 call in which he was kept waiting I'm surprised he made it to WHF before 4.30, driving as slowly as he was.

[mike tesko]

Don't jump the gun, information recorded elsewhere confirms that that was what Jeremy was told to do. The facts are that Police told Jeremy to go himself to the scene, he was told that he would be met there by police, he was told that police had already been deployed, he was told that in the event he should arrive at the scene before police arrived there, that under no circumstances should he approach the farmhouse alone but to wait until they got there. None of this was mentioned in Ralph Bambers 3.26am phone log, but as an afterthought, police did record the details of the "sons call", made 10 minutes later (3.36am)...

Jeremy left his cottage in Goldhanger and arrived there at 3.52am. His call to police commenced at 3.36am, and lasted 9 or 10 minutes, let's for arguments sake say his call to police concluded at 3.46am, this gave him 6 minutes to put the phone down, get clothes on, get downstairs, locate car keys, leave cottage, jump into car, start it up, and get all the way to the scene by 3.52am. Now, I personally have made that same journey in daylight, and videoed that journey of mine which is posted up on you tube. I believe that from start to finish that Jeremy made that particular journey under 5 minutes. If that is anything to go on, and despite appearing to slow down whilst a police car with flashing lights coming into his rear view mirror, Jeremy must have been hurtling along above the speed limit until that cop car overtook him. This has to be the correct interpretation. I am not making up excuses for Jeremy, but when he left his cottage to go directly to the scene as instructed by police at With am, Jeremy would not have expected the police to be racing along the road he himself was travelling along at high speed because he must have thought police were being deployed from Witham, or Chelmsford, and would take awhile for them (whoever they were) to arrive at the scene so soon. When Jeremy first became aware of the blue flashing lights atop the police car behind him in the road, that he was about to be stopped for speeding. Jeremy has never said that the police car with flashing lights that overtook him end route to the scene, was end route to the scene because he saw it turn up into Pages Lane. He never same d that upon arrival himself at the scene, that the police car parked up in Pages Lane, had been the same patrol car which had overtaken him. This gives something of an insight into what took place, involving how quickly Jeremy actually got to the scene in under 5 minutes from his cottage, including the point where he must have thought police were about to stop him for driving at break neck speed during the first stage of that journey. It makes sense to me, that once the patrol car with flashing lights went passed him without stopping him, that Jeremy must have felt mightily relieved that he hadn't been done for speeding, that he slowed down after that. It makes complete sense, in my opinion, that Jeremy could not have believed that the speeding police car with flashing blue lights that hurtled up behind him and overtook him, was responding to his call to police which had ended 3 minutes earlier. He must have thought that the police car in question was responding to some other incident...

[Caroline]

Don't jump the gun, information recorded elsewhere confirms that that was what Jeremy was told to do. The facts are that Police told Jeremy to go himself to the scene, he was told that he would be met there by police, he was told that police had already been deployed, he was told that in the event he should arrive at the scene before police arrived there, that under no circumstances should he approach the farmhouse alone but to wait until they got there. None of this was mentioned in Ralph Bambers 3.26am phone log, but as an afterthought, police did record the details of the "sons call", made 10 minutes later (3.36am)...

Its not written in Jeremy's log either. Also why did Jeremy initially argue that the 03:36 time was incorrect?

[mike tesko]

Its not written in Jeremy's log either. Also why did Jeremy initially argue that the 03:36 time was incorrect?

The contents of Jeremys phone log were subject of cross examination during his trial at Chelmsford Crown court, in October 1986 - the recipient was questioned about the contents of a witness statement made by him, which were not duplicated in phone log 3.36am. It was therefore proven that the actual contents of phone log 3.36am, were not accurately recorded so as to identify Jeremy as being the source for that timed (3.36am) call. With this in mind, I do not feel that I need to prove anything further on that particular matter. All I can do, and all that I seek to do, is to tell the truth, even if on some occasions things that I choose to speak about may contradict something I may have said previously. All I can say is that when this has occurred, there is some evidence in the file to support the conflicting views...

I think it should be obvious why Jeremy said at one time or another that his call to police was later than they said, or as the case may be, sooner than the police said. I put this down to the tactics of the police who were trying to disorientate him, regarding the time he received the call from his father, the call he made to police, and the call he made to his girlfriend. You only have to read his interview notes, the police are saying he said he called his girlfriend after police, and before police, or vice versa. The truth in this matter is easily explained - this is because Jeremy had already called police at Witham but got no response, before he spent some minutes looking up the telephone number for Chelmsford police station. At the time these matters were being put to Jeremy, police based their line of questioning on the time of Jeremys phone call to police which he made at 3.36am, but Jeremy in his own mindset, knew that he had made two calls to the police after receiving the 3.25am call from his father (or thereabouts). Jeremy had tried to call his father back but each attempt was made by a constant engaged tone, so Jeremy tried phoning Witham police station but got no response. I believe that when Jeremy was trying to call his father back at the scene at say 3.26am / 3.27am, that his father was already speaking with police as per Ralph Bambers 3.26am phone log contents. By this stage, Jeremy had been informed that something was happening back at the farm. He then for whatever reason telephoned his girlfriend at around 3.30am, informing her that something was not right at the farm, and his girlfriend told him in no uncertain terms, basically to go back to bed. Jeremy then made his own phone call to the police timed at 3.36am, as per the log with that time. This call lasted 9 or 10 minutes, so by 3.46am, Jeremy made the effort to get himself to the scene, and within 5 minutes he arrived in Pages Lane, at 3.52am...

He called his girlfriend before he made his 3.36am call to the police, but after his original attempt to call police at Witham, at around 3.26am / 3.27am...

This is the best explanation I can give after extensive research carried out by me into the matter. At 3.29am, somebody at the scene activated the panic alarm. This is believed to have been activated by Ralph Bamber...

[Caroline]

The contents of Jeremys phone log were subject of cross examination during his trial at Chelmsford Crown court, in October 1986 - the recipient was questioned about the contents of a witness statement made by him, which were not duplicated in phone log 3.36am. It was therefore proven that the actual contents of phone log 3.36am, were not accurately recorded so as to identify Jeremy as being the source for that timed (3.36am) call. With this in mind, I do not feel that I need to prove anything further on that particular matter. All I can do, and all that I seek to do, is to tell the truth, even if on some occasions things that I choose to speak about may contradict something I may have said previously. All I can say is that when this has occurred, there is some evidence in the file to support the conflicting views...

I think it should be obvious why Jeremy said at one time or another that his call to police was later than they said, or as the case may be, sooner than the police said. I put this down to the tactics of the police who were trying to disorientate him, regarding the time he received the call from his father, the call he made to police, and the call he made to his girlfriend. You only have to read his interview notes, the police are saying he said he called his girlfriend after police, and before police, or vice versa. The truth in this matter is easily explained - this is because Jeremy had already called police at Witham but got no response, before he spent some minutes looking up the telephone number for Chelmsford police station. At the time these matters were being put to Jeremy, police based their line of questioning on the time of Jeremys phone call to police which he made at 3.36am, but Jeremy in his own mindset, knew that he had made two calls to the police after receiving the 3.25am call from his father (or thereabouts). Jeremy had tried to call his father back but each attempt was made by a constant engaged tone, so Jeremy tried phoning Witham police station but got no response. I believe that when Jeremy was trying to call his father back at the scene at say 3.26am / 3.27am, that his father was already speaking with police as per Ralph Bambers 3.26am phone log contents. By this stage, Jeremy had been informed that something was happening back at the farm. He then for whatever reason telephoned his girlfriend at around 3.30am, informing her that something was not right at the farm, and his girlfriend told him in no uncertain terms, basically to go back to bed. Jeremy then made his own phone call to the police timed at 3.36am, as per the log with that time. This call lasted 9 or 10 minutes, so by 3.46am, Jeremy made the effort to get himself to the scene, and within 5 minutes he arrived in Pages Lane, at 3.52am...

He called his girlfriend before he made his 3.36am call to the police, but after his original attempt to call police at Witham, at around 3.26am / 3.27am...

This is the best explanation I can give after extensive research carried out by me into the matter. At 3.29am, somebody at the scene activated the panic alarm. This is believed to have been activated by Ralph Bamber...

Personally, I think he's now saying he called police at 03:36 because he's chancing his arm and trying to pass off one of the logs as a call from Nevill. No one will fall for it though. Oh and there was no panick alarm.

[scipio_usmc]

Don't jump the gun, information recorded elsewhere confirms that that was what Jeremy was told to do. The facts are that Police told Jeremy to go himself to the scene, he was told that he would be met there by police, he was told that police had already been deployed, he was told that in the event he should arrive at the scene before police arrived there, that under no circumstances should he approach the farmhouse alone but to wait until they got there. None of this was mentioned in Ralph Bambers 3.26am phone log, but as an afterthought, police did record the details of the "sons call", made 10 minutes later (3.36am)...

There is no Ralph Bamber log only a log of Jeremy Bamber's call and log created because of West's Call to Bonnett which was also attributable to Jeremy's call.

Neither log says anything about Jeremy being told to wait anywhere till police arrive. Your fable about Jeremy's call being recorded fell apart long ago only the calls to the HQ IR Information room were recorded (and only because they received 999 calls there) not the ordinary police station lines. 

[Caroline]

There is no Ralph Bamber log only a log of Jeremy Bamber's call and log created because of West's Call to Bonnett which was also attributable to Jeremy's call.

Neither log says anything about Jeremy being told to wait anywhere till police arrive. Your fable about Jeremy's call being recorded fell apart long ago only the calls to the HQ IR Information room were recorded (and only because they received 999 calls there) not the ordinary police station lines.

Exactly!

[mike tesko]

People normally speed to an emergency situation.  Jeremy was noted for speeding in general not just emergency situations.  Instead of speeding like normal he decided in this emergency situation to take it very slow. Not true, he got from his cottage to the scene in under 5 minutes from Goldhanger... That is SUSPICIOUS Getting from his cottage in Goldhanger to Pages Lane at the farmhouse in under 5 minutes is not suspicious. You try and do it in that time, see how you fare. Then along the way don't forget to slow down as though you have got a police car hurtling up behind you in the road with its blue lights flashing, and then drive at normal speed from that point on, whilst imagining the police car which overtook you a mile or so from the scene, continues to race ahead....

He didn't rush over Oh, Yes, he did...or call 999 There was no need for him to call 999...he called Julie Yes, he called Julie, after he failed to get a response from Witham police station, he has admitted doing that, and as far as I am concerned there was nothing wrong with him doing what he did in the sequence he did these things, because despite what you think, Jeremy did not know that anybody had been shot by that stage. All he knew, was that his father had called him around 3.25am, to tell him that "Sheila", or "She has" got the gun, and to come quickly... and after a while looked up police numbers casually No, he didn't behave casually. His girlfriend told Jeremy to go back to bed, but Jeremy phoned the police at 3.36am to report to them what he had been told by his father earlier. Jeremy did nothing wrong, in the sequence with which he went about his business in this matter, his behaviour was normal if there is such a thing as being normal in these circumstances... that is SUSPICIOUS.

He didn't knock on the door Come off it, why would Jeremy go and knock on the door when he was there with the police who took control of the incident after their arrival there at 3.48am..., try to look in the windows or try to get the police to do these things- that is SUSPICIOUS No, it was not suspicious, the police were in control of the incident, not Jeremy....

He was very calm why should he be worried, he didn't know anything had happened to anyone inside the farmhouse by that stage, and neither did the police... and not worried- that is SUSPICIOUS No, there is nothing suspicious in his behaviour or demeanure at that time of the proceedings. He was there with the police, and they were in control of the incident, not him..given his claims He hadn't made any claims of significance by that stage....

He lied about Sheila firing all weapons in the house Stpo being silly, he made no such claims at that stage that Sheila had fired all the shots. Get your facts right. Since, upon having the news broken to him that all his family were dead inside the farmhouse, Jeremy complained to PS Saxby that the men who had gone into the farmhouse had shot them all upon entry... and being competent in their use A child could have fired that Anshuzt rifle, stop exaggerating everything...- that is SUSPICIOUS No, its not suspicious, it is a fact that a child could easily fire a loaded rifle of that type. Go and look on You Tube, there is ample evidence to support what I am saying....

He lied about leaving the gun and bullets int he kitchen No, he didn't. This lie has come about because there were two rooms described inside the farmhouse, one was the main kitchen, and the other the back kitchen. there was a wooden bench which Jeremy has described as the settle in some instances, and as a table on other occasions. this bench is just inside the back door, beyond the internal main kitchen door, but in the general area of the back kitchen, not in the downstairs office. His case was that he placed the rifle there...- that is SUSPICIOUS No, its not, not when you know the true facts....

He didn't call Pam or any of the other relatives to tell them there was trouble Why should he, he distrusted them all... so they could come to be with him which would give him comfort Why should he, if he didn't even know that anyone had been shot until much later, and once he found out from PS Saxby, it wasn't long before those you have named came to Jeremys cottage to provide that comfort and support... but also because they had a right to know Well, they did get to know, they got to know not too long after Jeremy himself was told the awful news....  That is SUSPICIOUS Not at all suspicious to me, I'm afraid....

When you add all the evidence in with these suspicious things you see why the suspicious things were done. Your explanation is nonsense, since there is nothing at all suspicious in anything you are saying here...