Police log contents, and position of bodies in photographs don't add up, CRIKEY.

[scipio_usmc]

Your idea that the other 3 bodies were not found upstairs, is insane. If the point you are trying to make, or to prove, is that those additional 3 bodies could have also been found downstairs, then there would have been 5 bodies found downstairs, not 2. The content of the message logs are clear, TWO OF THE 5 BODIES WERE FOUND DOWNSTAIRS WITHIN MINUTES OF ENTRY, the other 3 bodies were most definately found upstairs 23 minutes later...

You are distorting in order to further your agenda.

Account from the raid team:

Nevill upon entry into the main kitchen police found Nevill's body in the location the body was seen by Collins through the window.  Raid team then proceeded to the stairs and went up and used a mirror to view both hallways. In the process they saw June's body in the doorway of the bedroom.

This information was fed to those outside. The fact entry was effected and so far a male and female body were found so far was then fed to the HQ Information room with a request for a doctor to be sent to the scene and crime scene officers because the dead bodies required such. 

The raid team continued to clear the house and then found Sheila who could not be seen until police actually entered the bedroom and walked to the other side of the bed because the bed hid her body.  They then cleared the remaining rooms finding the boys.

After finishing clearing the entire house word was passed that the entire house was clear and 3 more bodies were found so 5 total were found.  This was then passed to the HQ Information room.

The log entries don't make any mention of where the bodies were found you pretend they do because you have an agenda, to insist Jeremy didn't kill Sheila, and you know that the evidence proves Sheila didn't kill herself so you made up ridiculous allegations about police shooting her in the kitchen.  Sometimes you imply she walked upstairs herself after being shot other times you claim police carried her up there.  You pretend the log entries above contradict the police and support you by pretending they state a male and female body were found immediately in the kitchen and 3 more bodies found upstairs but the entries don't actually state such.  You are distorting to further your agenda.   simple look at the entries comports with the raid team's progress.

They found Nevill in the kitchen, found June shortly thereafter and this was reported to the HQ IR room so they could notify the proper people who needed to be sent as a result of bodies being found.  Upon clearing the remainder of the house including actually going into the master bedroom and clearing it they found the other 3 bodies.  Then it was reported they finished clearing the house 3 more bodies found.  This FULLY comports with the raid team's statements of how the house was cleared.  You manufactured a false conflict by misrepresenting that the log states the male and female bodies were found as soon as they got inside the door they broke down and 3 more upstairs. It doesn't actually state that and indeed there were no bodies inside the door that was broken down.  They had to go into the main kitchen to see the first body. It doesn't state whether any bodies were upstairs or downstairs the information fed was just how many bodies had been located by the time of each update. Update one was conveyed to those outside the house after June had been found but before they actually entered the master bedroom to find Sheila.  Update 2 was after the entire house was cleared. The controversy is entirely contrived by distorting what the log states.

Even if the entries did state such what you claimed though it would not matter because the people relaying the information to the HQ Information room and the people logging the information were not witnesses and could have been wrong.  The people outside could have gotten the story wrong and fed it to the IR room wrong or the IR room could have misunderstood the message being passed to them and misrecorded it.  They can't trump the claims of the actual eyewitnesses.

You want to use logs to refute the physical evidence and testimony of the actual participants.  This is absurd.  If you actually had the photos you made up of Sheila in bed there would not have been any need to distort the log contents and pretend they stated 2 bodies were found downstairs and 3 found upstairs because the photo would be the strongest proof available.  The logs were distorted because that distortion is all Jeremy supporters could do to try to pretend that police relocated a body from the kitchen.  Even that distortion only suggests a female body which could mean June or Sheila.  Naturally a further distortion insists they saw Sheila though the only other comment about a female in the kitchen concerned an elderly female so there is more support for June.  But anything that refutes the nonsense distortions are totally disregarded because the entire things is simply a farce driven by an agenda to pretend Jeremy is innocent.

[scipio_usmc]

Has any body got any idea which 3 bodies were found at 8.10am?

3 bodies were not found at 8:10am.  By 8:10am the entire house had been cleared and an update was reported to the IR room explaining that the house was fully cleared and 5 bodies total were found including the 2 previously reported during the first update that they entered the house and so far found 2 bodies.

The order in which bodies were found was:

1) Nevill
2) June
3) Sheila
4 and 5) the twins.

So the first 2 bodies referenced were Nevill and June the latter 3 bodies found were Sheila and the twins. 

[scipio_usmc]

If only 1 body had been found upon entry at 7.37am, why was it felt necessary to reconfirm that the body of a dead male, and a dead female (7.38am) had been found? Why was a request sent from the scene at 7.42am, requesting that the police surgeon, and Coroners officer be contacted regarding two bodies, not one? You do not continue as if the mix up had not occurred, if it had by informing the police surgeon and the coroners officer that 2 bodies had been found...

Furthermore, back in the incident room...

Within 3 minutes of the request to inform the police surgeon and coronors officer about two bodies, a female employee stationed in the incident room, received information from another source confirming that 1 of the 2 dead bodies was a murder, whilst the other body was a suicide...

The raid team entered at 7:30.  By the time the update was sent to the HQ IR room the raid team had already found both Nevill and June's bodies.  The raid team reported a man and female body found to date and this was fed to the HQ Information Room.  The only problem is one made up by you and other supporters who set out to distort.

You are outright lying about reports of murder suicide while the house was being cleared. There were no claims made about murder suicide simply notations regarding bodies found.  In 1991 Davidson told COLP he thinks he was told in the initial call to turn out that he was to report for a murder suicide.  He made a mistake he simply failed to remember many years later what he was told and was not even sure of the exact time he was notified.  He said he fed what he was told to Hammersley and Hammersely didn't recall him telling him about a murder suicide.  That is why the sole source used for such is Davidson's COLP statement.  The logs don't contain any such references.   

[mike tesko]

The raid team entered at 7:30.  By the time the update was sent to the HQ IR room the raid team had already found both Nevill and June's bodies.  The raid team reported a man and female body found to date and this was fed to the HQ Information Room.  The only problem is one made up by you and other supporters who set out to distort.

You are outright lying about reports of murder suicide while the house was being cleared. There were no claims made about murder suicide simply notations regarding bodies found.  In 1991 Davidson told COLP he thinks he was told in the initial call to turn out that he was to report for a murder suicide.  He made a mistake he simply failed to remember many years later what he was told and was not even sure of the exact time he was notified.  He said he fed what he was told to Hammersley and Hammersely didn't recall him telling him about a murder suicide.  That is why the sole source used for such is Davidson's COLP statement.  The logs don't contain any such references.

This response appears to accept that upon entry to the premises you agree that two bodies were in fact found, albeit you claim that mention of a dead female, at 7.37am, 7.38am, and 7.42am, was a reference to the body of a dead female, which was June Bamber, not Sheila Caffell. But, this does not sit well with the suggestion that June Bambers death could possibly be described as a suicide...

[mike tesko]

I am currently returned home back to a Barnsley, in South Yorkshire, from Spain (Majorca)...

[scipio_usmc]

This response appears to accept that upon entry to the premises you agree that two bodies were in fact found, albeit you claim that mention of a dead female, at 7.37am, 7.38am, and 7.42am, was a reference to the body of a dead female, which was June Bamber, not Sheila Caffell. But, this does not sit well with the suggestion that June Bambers death could possibly be described as a suicide...

Upon immediate entry no bodies were found.  This is where they were upon immediate entry:



After some police entered the main kitchen they found Nevill.  Some went into the office others into the kitchen.  Shortly thereafter they went up the stairs and used a mirror on the end of the rifle to look around.  The door to the master bedroom was open and they could see June in the doorway.  Nothing else could be seen from the landings.  They had to actually go inside the various rooms to see the other bodies.

Before they went any further this information was relayed outside the house.  While the police outside were busy relaying it to the police car which then relayed it to the HQ Information Room the raid team was busy clearing the rest of the house.  They found Sheila and the boys.  It was relayed outside that the search was complete and 3 more bodies found and this was relayed to the police vehicle and then the HQ Information room.

There is no mystery in the log entries, nothing sinister just accounts which comport with the progression of the raid team's work.

   

[mike tesko]

You are talking nonsense, the raid team got as far as the main kitchen on that downstairs side of the farmhouse, they did not venture beyond the main kitchen until the back kitchen, downstairs office (known as the den), the so called gun cupboard situated there, and all the rooms up the back stairs which lead to a locked storeroom door which had to be forced open (key was in lock on inside of that door), and the upstairs office. Nobody went beyond the main kitchen downstairs until all the downstairs rooms and all the upstairs rooms on that side of the farmhouse were checked and made secure. Police had to force the locked storeroom door, and remove a loft cover situated in its ceiling which gave access to a loft space, and a sky light window which provided access to the roof. Once all these duties had been completed, all the officers bar one (who was left in the upstairs office) returned to the point of entry downstairs, and joined other officers in the main kitchen...

From that location, police searched all other rooms on the ground floor of the farmhouse, including the lounge, and the dining room. Progress further into the farmhouse was somewhat delayed whilst officers dealt with a locked cellar door, which upon being bashed open by use of brute force, one of the firearms officers fell down the cellar steps and injured himself...

All of this took longer than 7 minutes to unfold.

[mike tesko]

The firearms officers who entered whf worked together as one unit, they searched all the downstairs rooms on the back kitchen side of the house, and up the back stairs including the locked storeroom door and the loft space, and then the upstairs office, before returning back downstairs to the internal door leading into the main kitchen. The reason why the raid team took this action was because immediately upon entry they found that internal door blocked, there was something very heavy behind it preventing the door being opened. Six firearms officers queuing up in that small area, was not tenable for longer than 20 / 30 seconds or more, so the officers who had rushed in once the back external door had been smashed open by use of a sledge hammer, over spilled into the back kitchen, the downstairs office, and up the set of stairs known as the back stairs. There was in fact a 6 or 7 minute hold up whilst two officers managed to push the inner kitchen door open, inch by inch, allowing PS Woodcock to start squeezing himself through a gap created by them gradually pushing at that particular door. As Woodcock went through that gap his riffle barrel pointing to the right hand side of his body, in effect pointing in the general direction of the outer wall of the main kitchen. The door itself swung open upon its hinges from right to left leaving that gap to the right of the door frame. Woodcock entered the kitchen blindly, he could not see what was beyond that door and the barrel of his rifle was grabbed by Sheila before he even got chance to see who had tried to take control of his weapon. The weapon was fitted with a sound moderator. At the time Sheila grabbed at the barrel the end of the silencer came into contact with the wall and scratched and gouged it...

[scipio_usmc]

You are talking nonsense, the raid team got as far as the main kitchen on that downstairs side of the farmhouse, they did not venture beyond the main kitchen until the back kitchen, downstairs office (known as the den), the so called gun cupboard situated there, and all the rooms up the back stairs which lead to a locked storeroom door which had to be forced open (key was in lock on inside of that door), and the upstairs office. Nobody went beyond the main kitchen downstairs until all the downstairs rooms and all the upstairs rooms on that side of the farmhouse were checked and made secure. Police had to force the locked storeroom door, and remove a loft cover situated in its ceiling which gave access to a loft space, and a sky light window which provided access to the roof. Once all these duties had been completed, all the officers bar one (who was left in the upstairs office) returned to the point of entry downstairs, and joined other officers in the main kitchen...

From that location, police searched all other rooms on the ground floor of the farmhouse, including the lounge, and the dining room. Progress further into the farmhouse was somewhat delayed whilst officers dealt with a locked cellar door, which upon being bashed open by use of brute force, one of the firearms officers fell down the cellar steps and injured himself...

All of this took longer than 7 minutes to unfold.

You are the one making up nonsense as you always do.  You have no evidence to refute the raid team's account that they passed a message outside that they found June and Nevill and then after fully clearing the house passed the second message.

You just make it up that they only got as far as the kitchen in 7 minutes in order to pretend the first 2 bodies were in the kitchen.  The raid team had 11 men it didn't take 11 men 7 minutes just to clear the kitchen and back kitchen. You make up things without any evidentiary basis and worse make up nonsense to boot.

The body reported initially was an elderly woman and June was the second body found. Clearly if there had been a female body in the kitchen it would have been June.  But there was only one body in the kitchen.  If there were 2 bodies in the kitchen police would have left both there not moved 1 to upstairs.
The dry pool of blood on the bedroom floor proves that is where Sheila 's body was when police entered.
These claims are such nonsense that they could not be made to the CCRC even.  There are the arguments made within the legal system and then the totally absurd claims made to the public in an attempt to fool us and this is one of them.   
 

[scipio_usmc]

The firearms officers who entered whf worked together as one unit, they searched all the downstairs rooms on the back kitchen side of the house, and up the back stairs including the locked storeroom door and the loft space, and then the upstairs office, before returning back downstairs to the internal door leading into the main kitchen. The reason why the raid team took this action was because immediately upon entry they found that internal door blocked, there was something very heavy behind it preventing the door being opened. Six firearms officers queuing up in that small area, was not tenable for longer than 20 / 30 seconds or more, so the officers who had rushed in once the back external door had been smashed open by use of a sledge hammer, over spilled into the back kitchen, the downstairs office, and up the set of stairs known as the back stairs. There was in fact a 6 or 7 minute hold up whilst two officers managed to push the inner kitchen door open, inch by inch, allowing PS Woodcock to start squeezing himself through a gap created by them gradually pushing at that particular door. As Woodcock went through that gap his riffle barrel pointing to the right hand side of his body, in effect pointing in the general direction of the outer wall of the main kitchen. The door itself swung open upon its hinges from right to left leaving that gap to the right of the door frame. Woodcock entered the kitchen blindly, he could not see what was beyond that door and the barrel of his rifle was grabbed by Sheila before he even got chance to see who had tried to take control of his weapon. The weapon was fitted with a sound moderator. At the time Sheila grabbed at the barrel the end of the silencer came into contact with the wall and scratched and gouged it...

Your lies just serve to make you a joke. The raid team only used the sledgehammer on the outside door.  Collins and Delgado entered the main kitchen with ease and rapidly.  No police indicated Collins and Delgado had a problem entering the kitchen on their own.  After they entered the main kitchen then other officers were able to enter the house. Neither Collins nor Delgado ever claimed they had difficulty entering the kitchen and need to use a sledgehammer you simply made this up like so many things you post:




It did not take them long to clear the bottom floor of the house.  Before they even went upstairs Collins used a mirror to locate June's body and thus they reported both June and Nevill's body when they reported their progress before going upstairs.




There was no rifle in the kitchen nor was Sheila there she was murdered hours earlier in the bedroom. 

Sheila was not shot with a Mini-14 she was shot with Nevill's 22LR Anschutz 525 rifle.  The Mini-14 used by police was not fitted with a moderator.  If she had been shot by the police while trying to grab one of their weapons it would have been a good shooting and the police would not have had anything to hide.  They would not have had any need to move her body anywhere.  So on top of the evidence being squarely against you, so is logic because your assertions of them moving her body would make no sense even if your baseless allegations had been true.

Bringing her to the bedroom and sticking the murder weapon on her body and shooting her with it again to make it appear she killed herself would not be able to conceal the police bullet. The bullets used by police were much larger and were jacketed so it would be impossible to confuse with an unjacketed 22LR bullet and travels at 3 times the velocity so the wound would obviously have not been consistent with 22LR either.

It is bad enough you keep making things up without any evidence to support your allegations but worse what you make up makes zero sense.  All you are doing is harming your own credibility.

 

[mike tesko]

None of the extracts taken from typed versions of witness statements were 'signed', by named officers, in other words these mickey mouse witness statements count for nothing unless the named officers attended the trial in October 1986, and gave the same testimony. Let's get the facts right dick head, unless they testified during the trial and repeated what someone else wrote in their witness statements, and the named witnesses stood up to scrutiny of cross examination from the defence, then I am afraid what you seek to rely upon is very dodgy evidence, indeed..,

[mike tesko]

Many of the raid team officers (totalling 8) witness statement contents were drafted up by another senior officer, the named officers in who's name these witness statements were introduced, are basically a sordid pack of lies...

[scipio_usmc]

None of the extracts taken from typed versions of witness statements were 'signed', by named officers, in other words these mickey mouse witness statements count for nothing unless the named officers attended the trial in October 1986, and gave the same testimony. Let's get the facts right dick head, unless they testified during the trial and repeated what someone else wrote in their witness statements, and the named witnesses stood up to scrutiny of cross examination from the defence, then I am afraid what you seek to rely upon is very dodgy evidence, indeed..,

More nonsense. The officers signed their statements the fact the ones on this site are simply copies from the file doesn't mean there is no signed original. Harters among others demonstrated there were signed copies long ago when you raised this desperate babble.

[scipio_usmc]

Many of the raid team officers (totalling witness statement contents were drafted up by another senior officer, the named officers in who's name these witness statements were introduced, are basically a sordid pack of lies...

None of the police officers in question assert the statements are fake and were made up.  In fact there are handwritten originals confirming they wrote them.  You posted many of the statements in question and asserted they were genuine.  After they were used against you then you made up the nonsense about them being fake.  In so doing you just embarrass yourself. It would be like me posing documents that I attempt to rely on then if someone else finds something damaging in them to respond saying the documents are fake.  I would never do that because aside from being dishonest it would be transparent what I was attempting to do and therefore only making matters worse.

[mike tesko]

The 8 firearms officers which consisted of the raid team, all refused to attend the trial, and testify, because they knew that the contents of witness statements made in their names, would undoubtedly have been tended into evidence, and the contents recorded there challenged, exposing this group of officers to the very strong possibility that they themselves might be prosecuted. It is also very interesting and pertinent to note, that none of PC Birds photographs have been shown to any of these 8 raid team members, and therefore none of them have confirmed that the position of the bodies (in particular, Sheila's body) was photographed where they were originally found? More interestingly, the COLP investigators themselves did not carry out this task, so for 30 years, that aspect of the case has never yet been tested by asking any of the 8 firearms officers whether or not PC Birds photographs which he took after 10am, represent the original untouched, unmoved bodies of the victims?