Police log contents, and position of bodies in photographs don't add up, CRIKEY.

[mike tesko]

Let's get the facts right, if PS Adams had attended the trial in October 1986, and had been presented with the crime scene photographs taken by PC Bird, from 10 O' clock onward, Adams would almost certainly have said that the position of Sheila Caffells head in relation to its position measured against the bedside cabinet in Birds photographs, was closer to the bedside cabinet when Bird took the photographs, than the distance away from the same bedside cabinet at the time he (Adams) viewed Sheila's body at around 9am, that same morning. Furthermore, PS Adams would have testified if he had been given the opportunity, to the effect that at the time he viewed Sheila's body in the bedroom, that there had not been any weapon resting on her body, by that stage.

Is that an accurate analysis of what PS Adams would have said, if he had been summoned to attend the trial held in October 1986, to testify?

Of course it is..,

if Adams had testified under oath, he would almost certainly have stated that the bible was not resting against the upper part of Sheila's right arm, when he viewed Sheila's body at around 9 O'clock in the bedroom. Lets hit the nail on the head, he would have testified to the effect, that the bible was in a different position in relation to the different position he had seen Sheila's body in, at around 9am, as compared to where her body and the bible were photoraphed by PC Bird after 10 O 'clock - who in gods good name would dispute this?

[mike tesko]

In his COLP interview, I do not think it is clear that he mentions seeing Sheila's body on the bed, or on the bedroom floor, but I could be wrong. What matters is that he said that in the images he saw on the video at the debrief, held on evening of 7th August 1985, that the bible was positioned closer to a different part of Sheila's body in the video image, than it had been when he entered the main bedroom at around 9 O'clock, because he says to COLP that the bible at that stage was closer to Sheila's hip, than to the upper part of her right arm...

Now, have I reported the facts right, or not?

[scipio_usmc]

Collins deals with the sighting of a dead female behind a door, before entry was made via the rear external entry door, whereas Collins explanation seeks to justify that he made a mistake by claiming that once he got into the farmhouse, he realised his mistake. But this does not accord with the spoken word recorded in the police logs. Since, in these logs, it clearly states that no such mistake could have taken place, because the logs confirm that the bodies of one dead male, and one dead female, were found upon entry, and this is reaffirmed during two further messages passed over the next 5 minutes (7.37 - 7.42am). Finally, the fact that 2 bodies and not one body, had been found downstairs by police entering the farmhouse is further confirmed by reference in the logs to a message (8.10am) passed, confirming discovery of only 3 further bodies upstairs, totalling 5 dead in total...

If there had been the mistake in misidentifying one body for two upon entry in accordance with Collins explanation, this mistake would surely have been rectified by the time police completed the first search of the premises by 8.10am, yet 33 minutes after the discovery of 2 bodies downstairs (7.37am) only a further 3 bodies are discovered upstairs (8.10am). No explanation has ever been forthcoming to account for the absent 4th body upstairs in the police logs...

1) You keep claiming logs kept by someone off scene trump the testimony of those who actually were inside the scene and witnessed the bodies. 

2) You keep claiming logs kept by someone off scene trump the physical evidence at the scene- there was zero physical evidence to support another body in the kitchen but is blood evidence which establishes Sheila's body was on the floor where it was found while she was still bleeding.

3) You keep distorting what the logs actually say.  I posted the exact portions related to the bodies.  The person recorded a call from a Deputy Insp saying police entered and so a male body had been found and a female body.  A subsequent message said 3 further bodies were found.  Neither entry recorded where the bodies were found.  Neither said the last 3 were upstairs and the first 2 downstairs.  The entries were not very specific. 

4) Your claim there has been no explanation given is sheer nonsense.

There are 2 different possibilities that were given.

A) That the person keeping the log was informed about Collins seeing an elderly female body in the kitchen and then being told about Nevill being found in the kitchen after entry and it being incorrectly assumed this meant 2 bodies were found in the kitchen- a male and female.

B) That after police found Nevill and June's bodies this was relayed to the police car outside and the police car then relayed to the person keeping the log that police entered and so far found a male body and female body resulting in this entry:



Then after the house was totally cleared and it was reported to those outside that 3 other bodies were found then that was related to the IR room resulting in this entry:


---------

The logs have been fully explained. You keep ignoring it because you have nothing legitimate to raise in Jeremy's defense.

[mike tesko]

In any event, if  PS Adams had attended the trial in October 1986, and testified to this effect, then would everyone agree that it was odds on that police had moved Sheila's body into the position PC Bird had eventually photographed it in, and that since the time PS Adams had viewed the body of Sheila, (around 9am) the rifle had been added by police to the body, and the bible had clearly been repositioned against the upper part of Sheila's right arm?

Would that be an accurate description of what PS Adams would have testified about, if he had been called to testify during the trial in October 1986?

[mike tesko]

In any event, if  PS Adams had attended the trial in October 1986, and testified to this effect, then would everyone agree that it was odds on that police had moved Sheila's body into the position PC Bird had eventually photographed it in, and that since the time PS Adams had viewed the body of Sheila, (around 9am) the rifle had been added by police to the body, and the bible had clearly been repositioned against the upper part of Sheila's right arm?

Would that be an accurate description of what PS Adams would have testified about, if he had been called to testify during the trial in October 1986?

Of course it would, and everyone knows that PS Adams would have stuck to his guns so to speak if he had been called to testify during the trial...

[mike tesko]

Based on what PS Adams had the potential to testify about, surely it would have been a racing certainty that the jury at the time of the trial in October 1986, would have come to the inevitable conclusion that police had in effect restaged Sheila's body themselves by 10 O'clock, and that the photographs taken by PC Bird after 10 am, onward, did not in any way reflect the position of Sheila's body, or other exhibits placed upon the body or around it, as it had been discovered upon entry almost two and a half hours previously upon entry into the premises by the firearms team?

Would that be an accurate assessment, of the now known facts?

Of course it would...

[mike tesko]

With the evidence of Ps Adams in the bag, so to speak, concerning the movement of Sheila's body, and the rifle, and the bible, this would then be measureable against the contents of all firearms officers witness statement contents where mention has been made of the position and the occation in which it is stated in witness statement format, where her body was initially found, whether or not there was a rifle upon Sheila's body upon discovery of her body (where ever), and where abouts in relation to her body, a bible was positioned?

[mike tesko]

Now, before I go any further, we can all see where this scenario is going to end up, do you all agree?

[mike tesko]

What we would end up with, prey tell, is the Commander of the first part of the firearms operation, disagreeing with his own officers if they agreed that Sheila's body had been found by them, exactly as PC Bird had photographed it (them), from 10 O' clock , onward...

[mike tesko]

Whether any of you consider me to be mentally ill or not, would you agree with my analysis, or disagree with it?

[mike tesko]

Every single one of you know, that what I am saying, is true
..

[mike tesko]

The police, stage managed Sheila's body, they put the rifle onto her body, they rearranged her hands upon and around the rifle, they repositioned the bible against her upper right arm, they rolled her body over from the recovery position resting upon its right side, and they set the scene by 10 O' clock, so that anyone viewing the photographs taken by PC Bird from 10 O'clock that morning, would provisionally believe that Sheila must have taken her own life...

But upon closer inspection of the known facts, come to realise that police had deliberately set the scene with the intention of making observers come to that conclusion, whilst in reality it was a stage managed crime scene, stage managed by no-one else other than the police themselves, designed to make people think, that Sheila had taken her own life...

[mike tesko]

Everybody, has been decieved by Essex police, who were responsible for adopting these tactics...

[mike tesko]

Jeremy Bamber is not clever enough to pull the wool over my eyes, I know he thinks he's the bees knees, and that he knows best, but the bottom line is that he is just a normal everyday John, who has been had over by the police,  and the criminal justice system, who themselves have been influenced by unscrupolous relatives, intent on getting thier hands on the parents huge booty, at Jeremys expense...

[scipio_usmc]

In his COLP interview, I do not think it is clear that he mentions seeing Sheila's body on the bed, or on the bedroom floor, but I could be wrong. What matters is that he said that in the images he saw on the video at the debrief, held on evening of 7th August 1985, that the bible was positioned closer to a different part of Sheila's body in the video image, than it had been when he entered the main bedroom at around 9 O'clock, because he says to COLP that the bible at that stage was closer to Sheila's hip, than to the upper part of her right arm...

Now, have I reported the facts right, or not?

There was no video presented at the debriefing.  WHen the police were giving their statements a month later they asked ot see the photos to help them prepare their statements and that is when they saw photos.

One of the allegations made that Adams was asked to address was about the position of the body.  It was alleged Miller among others said the body was slightly different in photos they saw. 

This suggests he was enumerating the problems made by them and telling COLP to query Delgado and Collins because they would be the best ones in a position to know:



You and other Jeremy supporters instead suggest he was saying he personally had no recollection of where the gun was, wondered if her head was too close to the nightstand, wondered about the angle of her head, and whether the Bible was at her waist.

If true these were things he wondered about it is not of any consequence.  Saying in 1991 that he had no recollection of where the gun was, was unsure of the angle of her head and thought maybe it moved and thought the Bible had been at her waist this doesn't prove a thing.  The Bible had blood stains proving it was sitting in the pool of blood where it was found. The only way for that pool to have been by her waist would have been if he was sitting up against the nightstand. Quite clearly he doesn't suggest such was the case nor does anyone else the cops say she was lying down.

That pool of blood was dry by the time police entered so there is no way they pushed the Bible from a lower location to that one.  Some wondered if the Bible had been higher up in the room not lower they suspected it was near the closet door and then pushed down but by the closet door would certainly not be near her waist it would be above her head.

Some Police who looked at the photos in September initially wondered if the photos were accurate but ultimately decided they were satisfied that she had not been moved and no items were moved.

Adams did recollect 2 gunshot wounds apparently according to his COLP testimony:



It appears his memory was faulty because he though Ins Montgomery held the debriefing and said he didn't think DCI Jones was there but Jones was the one in charge so Jones is the one likely who told him 2 pulls of the trigger probably caused it.

His COLP testimony also mentions that Montgomery was suspicious by the cleanliness of Sheila's feet and entire body given the fight Nevill endured and so was the entire firearms team as they talked on their drive away from the scene saying that there were problems with the suicide murder theory:





Furthermore he mentions how the person conducting the briefing (who he didn't realize was DCI Jones) declared that a statement from Adams and the rest of his team would not be necessary just statements from Collins and Delgado was requested DCI Jones felt that would be sufficient.  So Jones didn't ask for the firearms member's to use their experience to help him and didn't even want to know all their observations just to hear from the first 2 who entered the house.



So DCI Jones didn't care about trying to get the opinions of the Firearms officers he simply decided it was a murder suicide and he was proceeding on that basis without regard to what others might think.