The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence

[lookout]

do you think the police would a have continued with the murder suicide theory if the family had not raised and put forward thier theories.

I was reading the article Caroline e posted on the myths of circumstantial evidence. A high proportion of people are convicted on circumstantial evidence . It's a worry when someone puts forward a theory especially those who are to gain so have motivation and then the circumstantial evidence is guided towards that theory.

I would have been more comfortable if the family had not become so involved and the police had arrived at the same conclusion through proper police work.

Does all this need looking at within the system, I've said it before but I would be really worried if I had to convict someone to lifein prison based on ssomeone s theores.

I would have liked to have seen the end result had the family been bankrupt.Would there have been a different twist,or what ? No money in the kitty.Everyone would have changed their tune then.Interesting !

[lookout]

Robert Boutflour meets ACC Peter Simpson on the 6th September.

The same day Superintendent Kenneally meets ACC Peter Simpson. To discuss the conclusions of his review, that found the evidence showed Sheila was responsible for the shootings.

Then two days later Julie Mugford "comes forward" claiming Jeremy had confessed to her and the information she provided can only have come from Robert Boutflour or Ann Eaton.

Seriously. Anyone who cannot smell a rat here is a fully certifiable moron.

There's an admission somewhere in your post.If it had horns it would poke you.

[Steve_uk]

I get what your saying but it wouldn't have made me find guilty on the evidence we have available to us on here.

actually steve that brings to my mind about the press. Was this trial by media and did it also have an influence on the outcome.

Well there always is collusion between Police and Press..isn't that what the Leveson inquiry is all about? Bamber didn't do himself any favours by trying to sell photographs of his dead sister.

[lookout]

Well there always is collusion between Police and Press..isn't that what the Leveson inquiry is all about? Bamber didn't do himself any favours by trying to sell photographs of his dead sister.

I would have looked upon the photographs debacle as something an immature person would think about.They were like a couple of giggling schoolboys I suspect,especially JB as the other one batted for the other side so wouldn't have shared the same view or interest. A foolish prank,nothing more. Certainly nothing to get excited about unless you're scraping the barrel " looking for clues "--------which the gutter press were of course.

[Steve_uk]

I would have looked upon the photographs debacle as something an immature person would think about.They were like a couple of giggling schoolboys I suspect,especially JB as the other one batted for the other side so wouldn't have shared the same view or interest. A foolish prank,nothing more. Certainly nothing to get excited about unless you're scraping the barrel " looking for clues "--------which the gutter press were of course.

I concur with this and I know we all grieve in different ways. But whether you believe him innocent or not there was no regret about leaving the gun out in the first place and no rumination on the five deceased persons however they met their demise.

[notsure]

I concur with this and I know we all grieve in different ways. But whether you believe him innocent or not there was no regret about leaving the gun out in the first place and no rumination on the five deceased persons however they met their demise.

Do you not think that sometimes we forget he was so young when this all happened. His behaviour would not have been that ofsomeone that has completely matured say in thier late 20 early 30s. I think he was very mature in some ways but a complete plonker in other ways. I often wonder if he regrets the way he behaved during his interviews. He behaved like someone that didn't really appreciate the big trouble he was in, maybe assuming ' well I haven't done anything wrong so they can't hurt me' .

I would like to hear from the CT on some of his feelings on this of issue.

[David1819]

I doubt Julie ever met the relatives again after that first fateful day at Goldhanger. Why would she invent the hitman and why would she recall that a glove came off in the fight with Nevill when if in your scenario all she had to do was stick with what was recorded in Robert Boutflour's diary..

She didn't invent the hitman story she was parroting RWB and Stan Jones theory.

In Julie Mugfords "diary" you have RWBs theories about bikes and wetsuits. She either got this from RWB directly or from Stan Jones.

Mathew Mcdoanld tells people he is a mercenary. He also does drugs with Jeremy. On the 20th of August Mcdonald is mentioned in a meeting between police and the relatives. RWB also notes down Jeremy giving someone £2000 believing he is onto something. Ann Eaton believes Sheila was found on the bed with the bible on her chest.

All the above takes place weeks before Julie "comes forward" and when she does what does she say? Jeremy said to me that he paid Mathew Mcdoanld £2000 to kill the family, He got Sheila to shoot herself on the bed and then placed the bible on her chest.

Seriously Steve how can you not see what has happened?

[lookout]

I concur with this and I know we all grieve in different ways. But whether you believe him innocent or not there was no regret about leaving the gun out in the first place and no rumination on the five deceased persons however they met their demise.

Going by the shambles in the pantry at the back of the kitchen,I wouldn't have thought that anyone was fussy over anything,let alone leaving guns out all over the place. The place was cluttered, where folk just left things where they stood,literally----guns and all.
I know farmhouses aren't always pristine,they're not expected to be when they're places of work when you have " traffic " in and out,so I'd class that as another " nit-pick " along with all the others.

[lookout]

Do you not think that sometimes we forget he was so young when this all happened. His behaviour would not have been that ofsomeone that has completely matured say in thier late 20 early 30s. I think he was very mature in some ways but a complete plonker in other ways. I often wonder if he regrets the way he behaved during his interviews. He behaved like someone that didn't really appreciate the big trouble he was in, maybe assuming ' well I haven't done anything wrong so they can't hurt me' .

I would like to hear from the CT on some of his feelings on this of issue.

I can go along with that. Plonker, that's a cracking description of Jeremy.

[Jane]

Do you not think that sometimes we forget he was so young when this all happened. His behaviour would not have been that ofsomeone that has completely matured say in thier late 20 early 30s. I think he was very mature in some ways but a complete plonker in other ways. I often wonder if he regrets the way he behaved during his interviews. He behaved like someone that didn't really appreciate the big trouble he was in, maybe assuming ' well I haven't done anything wrong so they can't hurt me' .

I would like to hear from the CT on some of his feelings on this of issue.

I notice you haven't addressed the point -the HUGELY important point- raised by Steve, regarding Jeremy's lack of concern that it was the gun HE'D allegedly left out which had been responsible for 5 deaths. Lack of maturity doesn't come into it. My friend's husband ran competition shoots for under 16's and they all observed gun safety. Notsure, I get the feeling that you're emotionally aware so I'm expecting more than it wasn't Jeremy's fault and someone else could have put it away. However, it's the response I'd expect from Jeremy.

[lookout]

I notice you haven't addressed the point -the HUGELY important point- raised by Steve, regarding Jeremy's lack of concern that it was the gun HE'D allegedly left out which had been responsible for 5 deaths. Lack of maturity doesn't come into it. My friend's husband ran competition shoots for under 16's and they all observed gun safety. Notsure, I get the feeling that you're emotionally aware so I'm expecting more than it wasn't Jeremy's fault and someone else could have put it away. However, it's the response I'd expect from Jeremy.

Jane,I rather feel that both Sheila and Jeremy were " carried " while living under the roof of WHF. So much so that June did all but wipe their behinds,so whatever was left out stayed out until someone else put it away whatever it was.

[Steve_uk]

She didn't invent the hitman story she was parroting RWB and Stan Jones theory.

In Julie Mugfords "diary" you have RWBs theories about bikes and wetsuits. She either got this from RWB directly or from Stan Jones.

Mathew Mcdoanld tells people he is a mercenary. He also does drugs with Jeremy. On the 20th of August Mcdonald is mentioned in a meeting between police and the relatives. RWB also notes down Jeremy giving someone £2000 believing he is onto something. Ann Eaton believes Sheila was found on the bed with the bible on her chest.

All the above takes place weeks before Julie "comes forward" and when she does what does she say? Jeremy said to me that he paid Mathew Mcdoanld £2000 to kill the family, He got Sheila to shoot herself on the bed and then placed the bible on her chest.

Seriously Steve how can you not see what has happened?

But RWB and Stan Jones never mentioned the hitman. The bike was a possible mode of transport and suspiciously it had the yellow sulphurous mud of the region still encrusted on the tyres weeks after the murders. The "Sheila on the bed" story was circulating that first morning at Goldhanger, which is when Ann Eaton became aware of it, but Julie didn't know until she quizzed Jeremy that evening after everyone had left. Him wanting to be alone with Julie spoke volumes whether he did chuckle or cough, and Julie must have suspected his involvement in the crimes there and then.

From what I recall Matthew McDonald had been to White House Farm to fix some plumbing and described Jeremy as "a queer fish". I doubt they ever socialized. Wasn't the £2000 a sum that Nevill had lent his son for the world trip, but apparently the latter had paid this to some friend(an air steward?) and therefore Julie would have known he did not have that amount of cash available at that particular moment in time.

[lookout]

Do any of us know if after JB left the rifle on the settle,whether Neville put it into the cupboard ?  NO !

[Jane]

Jane,I rather feel that both Sheila and Jeremy were " carried " while living under the roof of WHF. So much so that June did all but wipe their behinds,so whatever was left out stayed out until someone else put it away whatever it was.

Are you saying that the responsibility -for putting away a gun he'd been using- wasn't Jeremy's?

[Steve_uk]

Jane,I rather feel that both Sheila and Jeremy were " carried " while living under the roof of WHF. So much so that June did all but wipe their behinds,so whatever was left out stayed out until someone else put it away whatever it was.

I doubt it was June who busied herself with the needs of her children, except when they were liable to bring shame on the family and the ulterior motive was in evidence.