The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence

[Jane]

Sometimes when I have nicked myself shaving the washing powder doesn't remove the stain from the shirt completely so I'm still baffled as to where all the blood went if none of Jeremy's was found at the White House..

A cold water soak is probably the best way of removing blood stains. Can we imagine that Jeremy would have known this? It's unlikely that any of his blood would have been found at WHF simply because they wouldn't have been looking for it in the early stages.

[susan]

Sometimes when I have nicked myself shaving the washing powder doesn't remove the stain from the shirt completely so I'm still baffled as to where all the blood went if none of Jeremy's was found at the White House..

Steve do you mean blood on Jeremy's clothes none of his own blood would have been found as I do not think he was hurt at all.  He must have burnt the stuff to be safe.  Had the police looked straight away they may have found some evidence but it was a month later.

[lookout]

Steve, they MAY have done, but not immediately. What would have been the point? They were convinced that it was literally an inside job, ie 4 murders and a suicide.

What was it that changed the tragedy from 4 murders and a suicide to 5 murders ? Have EP mentioned that at all ?

[Jan]

Didn't the Police check the drains and the paths for tyre treads? A bit risky burying bloodied clothes and he could hardly enter Bourtree Cottage in sneakers trailing blood everywhere.

RB did as well - very soon after the murders. Trust me if he had found something we would have known

[scipio_usmc]

Didn't the Police check the drains and the paths for tyre treads? A bit risky burying bloodied clothes and he could hardly enter Bourtree Cottage in sneakers trailing blood everywhere.

Since they suspected murder suicide they didn't even fingerprint the house let alone go searching outside of it.  April accurately points out any investigations they did regarding the bike, mud, clothes he wore etc were many weeks later.  If I committed a crime I would dispose of evidence in someone else's garbage. The chance of them looking through it to notice an extra small bag is slim.  Even if they did find it they would not know who it belonged to and would not know for sure it was from a crime so turn it in to police.  Some people have disposed of bodies in other's people garbage that were not discovered until after reaching the dump. That is more risky a proposition than some bloody clothing but bodies not even being detected shows you how easy it is to dispose of other things.   

[Jan]

Ok some Facts - and you don't have to go into any assumptions about why.

They never found JB footprints in any blood
They never found any forensic evidence of his exit from the house
There was never any clothes /gloves found hidden or burnt
No one saw him go to WHF or leave the house and arrive back home
They never found any fibre from the gloves he was supposed to have been wearing
They never found any physical evidence of a fight on him ( or Sheila  for that matter)
They never found ay blood or evidence of him disposing of evidence in his house ( where the police were the next day)
No one saw him disposing of any evidence ( despite the family watching him like a hawk)
There was no evidence on the bike or his car or the wetsuit
No evidence not even one tiny bit was found on any clothes or shoes of blood from any of the victims.

So therefore you think he would have been one of the most meticulous and clever murderers - but no he then apparently told his girlfriend who he was about to break up with.

And don't bore me with the old story he had a month to dispose of everything - unless he was psychic and knew the police were like the keystone cops he did not have a month - it is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on here . Plus according to some he was too busy galavanting around to have time to be scrubbing the bike with bleach
[/quote

Hello Jan

I don't think the bike was used never did. From what Scipio has told me not that much blood would have been over the floors think Caroline said Jeremy put towels and cushions on the area where poor Ralph was sitting bent over.  According to Scipio the murderer would not have so much blood on his clothes .  The sad thing is because it was stated by Taff Jones this was 4 murders one suicide the whole crime scene was wrecked so any valuable evidence would have been destroyed.  Such as the clothes in the buckets we don't really know where they came from.  For sake of debate how about Jeremy took a shower the head was hanging down as if it had been used and he could have easily had a change of clothes hidden at the farm I have asked before but nobody seemed to know if the farm had an incinerator if not Jeremy could have bagged his clothes and hid them till he had time to dispose of them he may have not been wearing many Had he changed his clothes he would not have left anything to incriminate him on the window leaving the place if indeed he left that way  The sad things is  I have put all this to you and it could all be wrong and the truth will never be known IMO only one person knows that.  Think EP had a better idea but had no evidence to prove his guilt. Wonder if his clothes could have been burnt in the Aga.

see in red -well that would have applied to Sheila as well then? So why are people surprised by the lack of victims blood on her?

[Jan]

A cold water soak is probably the best way of removing blood stains. Can we imagine that Jeremy would have known this? It's unlikely that any of his blood would have been found at WHF simply because they wouldn't have been looking for it in the early stages.

I think they would have noticed mens foot prints in the blood or on window sills etc if there had been any . It is not as if they did no forensic inspections at all.

[Jan]

Steve do you mean blood on Jeremy's clothes none of his own blood would have been found as I do not think he was hurt at all.  He must have burnt the stuff to be safe.  Had the police looked straight away they may have found some evidence but it was a month later.

I bet if he had burnt clothes you would still have things like zips/buttons etc left and theres no way he would have risked that in WHF.

[susan]

I bet if he had burnt clothes you would still have things like zips/buttons etc left and theres no way he would have risked that in WHF.

Jan that is a good point back to the drawing board

[Jan]

Actually it's only with hindsight that Jeremy had a month to get rid of incriminating evidence. he couldn't have known he had that time so I imagine that he'd have disposed of it asap.

Agreed - and Anne and RB were watching him from day one . Like a hawk .

And if he had buried some clothes then whats the betting that in the intervening years they would have been dug up or sniffed out by a dog or wild animal.

[susan]

Agreed - and Anne and RB were watching him from day one . Like a hawk .

And if he had buried some clothes then whats the betting that in the intervening years they would have been dug up or sniffed out by a dog or wild animal.

Jan I was watching a real life murder in America and the son and his close friend between them killed the son's parents for the inherritance and they removed all their clothes before committing the murders then showered dressed and left 

[Jan]

Some washing took place in the upstairs bathroom, the light was even left on.  At minimum he washed his hands and face to make sure he didn't have blood on his skin.  He could have changed his clothing there as well- which would make sense to do and then stuff them in a bag.  He could either dispose of them on his way back home or simply hide them on his way back home in a spot he planned to return to later in order to permanently dispose of them.  It is easy to hide things in the woods, stormdrain, to bury them or even to dump them in someone's garbage can or dumpster. People are not going to notice an extra bag in their garbage can or dumpster. Since his place was not thoroughly searched we don't have any way to know if he initially hid them at his place or not. 
 
Disposing of the evidence wasn't a tricky proposition that is easy the hard part was carrying out the murders in a way that looked like Sheila was responsible and had killed herself and he botched that.

Oh so someone washed in WHF ? so that could have been Sheila then?

It is for the reasons I have given not that easy to bury clothes without them being discovered later plus there are not many "dumpsters2 in the fields or storm drains for that matter. And don't you think the police inspected those areas when they eventually changed their minds? This is a small area of English countryside we are talking about - he did not have miles and miles of route to hide things on. Wonder if he picked a day when people had their dustbins out to collect?

[notsure]

Ep had no right to suspect murder suicide. What on earth were they thinking. Even if it was murder suicide they should still have taken a lot more than photographs.

Cock up after cock up in my opinion , they simply did not do there jobs.

human nature allows us to believe what we r told to be the truth,  but it was there job to look , question, not believe, gather evidence forensically and every other way. It was there duty and they failed miserably. Total incompetence,

[notsure]

Im with holmes on this one. Let us all shift our point of view a little.

[Jan]

Police didn't search for fibers so how would they find any?  In any event unless you have somethign to match a fiber to they are worthless.

The killer clearly wore gloves and had blood on his clothing.  Plenty of blood woudl have gotten on the killer while beating Nevill- more than enough for such blood to give away he had beat Nevill severely with the rifle.

Sheila had reason to use gloves or change after murdering everyone and would have had no opportunity to conceal such gloves or clothing which you admit wasn't found at WHF.

Jeremy did indeed have a month to dispose of evidence but he didn't need tha tmonth.  He had the opportunity to dispose of the evidence after leaving WHF before ever calling police.  Since he called police he had all the time he wanted to wash, change and dispose of evidence. 

So let's compare- Sheila no motive to change her clothing and wash up and no opportunity to get rid of such so that they would not be found but Jeremy had motive and opportunity.

Closing your eyes to the evidence doesn't make it go away.

Sheila did not need a motive to do anything at all if she was ill -which she was - you applying logic to a situation where there was no logic.

Fact - Sheila had a diagnosed mental illness .

JB has ever been diagnosed with a mental illness or personality disorder - people use the fact that he never even liked killing wild animals so he would not have gone out to shoot rabbits - but are quite happy to accept he would murder in cold blood .