The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence

[Jan]

Indeed they did.but it must be remembered that Jeremy wouldn't have come across as your archetypal liar and criminal. He was erudite, educated and it's simple human psychology that whatever conclusions they later arrived at later, his words would have been a powerful influence at the time.

  Adam thinks he was thick as two planks - he keeps harping on about how he passed no exams.

[Caroline]

They had years and years of experience between them dealing with liars and criminals so I find that difficult to believe - however in the spirit of debate I agree it is a possibility . But if there was evidence there it would not have disappeared. They were back in the house by the 14th were they not taking photos of the mantle - so I bet they looked at other things as well.

Given the information they has to go with, they were not initially looking for a liar or a criminal. They have no reason to disbelieve what they were being told. Jeremy was (to all intense and purposes), there to assist them. It should be remembered though that Stan Jones didn't buy his story from the beginning.

[Jan]

Indeed they did.but it must be remembered that Jeremy wouldn't have come across as your archetypal liar and criminal. He was erudite, educated and it's simple human psychology that whatever conclusions they later arrived at later, his words would have been a powerful influence at the time.

To be fair if we had seen the notebooks and statements from the day of the murders I might agree with you . however all the words attributed to JB that he allegedly said on the night - that he denies came from September.

Just saying I would love to see the original files. It would seem absolute stupid to say on the night she was an expert with all guns in the house then in a written statement deny he said that. Sorry I just don't believe what the police say - I think they attributed a lot of it to excuse themselves . IMO of course.

[Caroline]

To be fair if we had seen the notebooks and statements from the day of the murders I might agree with you . however all the words attributed to JB that he allegedly said on the night - that he denies came from September.

Just saying I would love to see the original files. It would seem absolute stupid to say on the night she was an expert with all guns in the house then in a written statement deny he said that. Sorry I just don't believe what the police say - I think they attributed a lot of it to excuse themselves . IMO of course.

The two situations were different, in one he was just a witness - he knew they weren't taking notes and if he thought he could get away with it, I guess he never assumed for one moment he would be sat being interrogated as a suspect - where his initial words would come back to bite him on the backside. He had no choice but to deny it or admit he lied - he chose the former.

[Jane]

  Adam thinks he was thick as two planks - he keeps harping on about how he passed no exams.

I concur that academia was probably NOT Jeremy's forte but I'll bet, with his arrogance, he could do a first class job of convincing people that he knew what he was talking about.

Re Adam's thoughts, what is there one can possible say

[Jan]

The two situations were different, in one he was just a witness - he knew they weren't taking notes and if he thought he could get away with it, I guess he never assumed for one moment he would be sat being interrogated as a suspect - where his initial words would come back to bite him on the backside. He had no choice but to deny it or admit he lied - he chose the former.

or he never said it.

[Caroline]

or he never said it.

Which would mean only Jeremy is telling the truth 

[Jan]

Which would mean only Jeremy is telling the truth 

or to quote Adams favourite phrase there was a ring of truth. Nothing has to be so black and white . Embelishment of words can be very dangerous in a situation like this.

If Jeremy said yes his sister was familiar with guns from the farm but had not used them on a regular basis - then when the police realised they had made a mistake they had to cover their actions by making out she had used them all - it was their word against his .

so not black and white out and out lies - twisting his words for the "noble cause" - but if that was the case it puts a completely different spin on the situation on the night.

And the family told the police within hours nearly that Sheila could not have used the gun - then why did they not pick up on his blatant lies then?

[Steve_uk]

or to quote Adams favourite phrase there was a ring of truth. Nothing has to be so black and white . Embelishment of words can be very dangerous in a situation like this.

If Jeremy said yes his sister was familiar with guns from the farm but had not used them on a regular basis - then when the police realised they had made a mistake they had to cover their actions by making out she had used them all - it was their word against his .

so not black and white out and out lies - twisting his words for the "noble cause" - but if that was the case it puts a completely different spin on the situation on the night.

And the family told the police within hours nearly that Sheila could not have used the gun - then why did they not pick up on his blatant lies then?

Because Taff Jones had dismissed the affair as " a domestic" and used the carnage as a pretext for a training exercise with no thorough forensic search. The last thing he wanted was to rake up alternative viewpoints.

[Jan]

Because Taff Jones had dismissed the affair as " a domestic" and used the carnage as a pretext for a training exercise with no thorough forensic search. The last thing he wanted was to rake up alternative viewpoints.

The other way to look at it is that they also may have destroyed evidence that proved Sheila was the murderer.

And I have always said that it was a crime scene even if murder suicide and there still should have been a proper investigation. If I had been Colin I would have been fuming about how they handled the crime scene - and assuming that JB is guilty - nearly let him get away with it.

[Caroline]

The other way to look at it is that they also may have destroyed evidence that proved Sheila was the murderer.

And I have always said that it was a crime scene even if murder suicide and there still should have been a proper investigation. If I had been Colin I would have been fuming about how they handled the crime scene - and assuming that JB is guilty - nearly let him get away with it.

I think he was just glad they got him in the end.

[scipio_usmc]

The other way to look at it is that they also may have destroyed evidence that proved Sheila was the murderer.

And I have always said that it was a crime scene even if murder suicide and there still should have been a proper investigation. If I had been Colin I would have been fuming about how they handled the crime scene - and assuming that JB is guilty - nearly let him get away with it.

They did everything they should have done to test whether she was the shooter.  They did hand swabs, tested the blood on her clothing, tested her clothing for GSR.  They found nothing because clearly she wasn't the killer.  They investigated her but didn't do what they should have to investigate Jeremy that was the error they made it was to Jeremy's benefit.  Sheila's day clothes had no blood on them there were no bloody gloves.  She had no wounds besides her gunshot wounds. They looked they simply found nothing though they were trying to find a way to blame her.

[Jan]

They did everything they should have done to test whether she was the shooter.  They did hand swabs, tested the blood on her clothing, tested her clothing for GSR.  They found nothing because clearly she wasn't the killer.  They investigated her but didn't do what they should have to investigate Jeremy that was the error they made it was to Jeremy's benefit.  Sheila's day clothes had no blood on them there were no bloody gloves.  She had no wounds besides her gunshot wounds. They looked they simply found nothing though they were trying to find a way to blame her.

How do you know Sheilas day clothes had no blood on them? There is no evidence they were tested - in fact Anne Eaton says she still had the dress Sheila was wearing during the day in her laundry basket years afterwards so the police never took it away to be tested.

[Adam]

The other way to look at it is that they also may have destroyed evidence that proved Sheila was the murderer.

And I have always said that it was a crime scene even if murder suicide and there still should have been a proper investigation. If I had been Colin I would have been fuming about how they handled the crime scene - and assuming that JB is guilty - nearly let him get away with it.

Thats it. EP destroyed all the evidence on Sheila which showed she was the killer. Painstakingly arranging her so nothing could be found by the crime scene investigators.

Can't anyone be trusted these days ?

When and who did this ? It must have been done soon afterwards. I assume dead bodies are examined soon after a massacre.

If the evidence on Sheila showed she was the killer, why did the police decide to frame an innocent man ?

[Adam]

How would the police know whether the evidence showed Sheila was the killer ? They would not be trained in this.

The crime scene investigators and pathologists would examine Sheila and write their report.

This means if Sheila was the killer,  the police asked them to change their statements.

The conspiracy widens.