Sheila's hands

[smiffy]

so Hartley  ...mike is not telling porky pies at all and you are making clearly false claims about mike on this issue and also you make false claims yourself on this issue wether its from you being ignorant or otherwise ...you are in the wrong.

accept that and move on hartley ..the evidence is not what you want to hear...wishful thinking will not help debate either way.

people make mistakes.....ok no probs...ppl accept they were wrong and learn and if wise move on.

deliver some sound rock solid evidence that JB was responsible for I have seen nothing yet that comes close to such a description ever existing in the whole case.

[chelmsey]

The butt of the rifle,I presume,was used to strike Ralph round the head causing his skull to fracture.Could the rifle have not become broken this way?

[smiffy]

hartley posted;
It's just a remarkable coincidence that the injuries which are incorrectly referred to as finger nail gouges are in exactly the same location then?

What stands out is that the pathologist only refers to bruises and opts not to even mention the distinctly different fingernail gouges which cannot have been inflicted with  rounded ended object in the same way that the bruises were formed..fact.

Sheila attacked Ralphs arm...by gouging with her fingernails ...and she may also have attacked his arm with something else around the same time.

The picture shows both the bruises from a rounded ended object  and the gouges from Sheila's fingernails.

[grahameb]

hartley posted;
It's just a remarkable coincidence that the injuries which are incorrectly referred to as finger nail gouges are in exactly the same location then?

What stands out is that the pathologist only refers to bruises and opts not to even mention the distinctly different fingernail gouges which cannot have been inflicted with  rounded ended object in the same way that the bruises were formed..fact.

Sheila attacked Ralphs arm...by gouging with her fingernails ...and she may also have attacked his arm with something else around the same time.

The picture shows both the bruises from a rounded ended object  and the gouges from Sheila's fingernails.

Where are the pictures? can't find them.

[Hartley]

deliver some sound rock solid evidence that JB was responsible for I have seen nothing yet that comes close to such a description ever existing in the whole case.

You can be as patronizing as you want, the pathologist refers to injuries to Ralphs forearm, you can't just decide that you don't like the description and then invent your own cause. You're concerned about evidence, where's the evidence that they injuries were caused in the manner you suggest.

Apart from all that, I wasn't discussing JB's guilt or innocence, when I said that I thought the rifle was responsible I did not suggest its wielder.

So with all due respect you can take your rude bully boy posts and gently place them where the sun doesnt shine. 

[sandy]

Nevill’s body also had black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Nevill having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.

Subsequent searches of this room revealed Nevill’s blood stained wristwatch under a rug and a piece of broken butt from the rifle on the floor.

The rifle stock was found to be damaged, with a piece of wood missing. The broken piece of wood found on the floor in the kitchen was the missing part of the stock.

[Hartley]

Yes, other injuries were caused by the rifle, so its not beyond the realms of possibility that the forearm wounds were caused in the same way.

[smiffy]

ah Hartley ..not an adult way to respond...have I touched a raw nerve,
back to debate..

attaching the picture.
While some of the bruises MAY have occurred from being struck with a rounded end object...from the bruise size..I would estimate something like a broad marker pen sized item being jabbed on his arm..if that was the true cause.
HOWEVER.....there is often one of them!!!..Gripping someone tightly.. too tightly can and does cause bruising and from a  strong grip such bruises can be formed on someones arm  in the manner of many of those seen on Ralphs forearm.  Is it not the case that when strangling cases are investigate bruising is sometimes indicative...not always but sometimed...just to put things in perspective.

It is credible that some or maybe all  of the claimed bruising on the arm may have arisen from Sheila gripping Ralphs arm very tightly.

[Hartley]

Well its as credible as the wounds being caused in any other way without evidence.

If you head down that road, could the rifle or other object have caused the, could JB or another person caused them, could a farming accident the day before have caused them?

You want to say it was Sheila to place her in prime suspect position, that's the only reason.

[Hartley]

ah Hartley ..not an adult way to respond...have I touched a raw nerve,
back to debate.

You were hardly debating, debating involves considering all the angles.

No raw nerve, just not interested in your points scoring method of forcing your opinion on someone. But oh well.   

[Roch]

smiffy you're making some good points.  There's no need to goad Hartley.  Just continue making your points... 

[smiffy]

hartley posts;

Yes, other injuries were caused by the rifle, so its not beyond the realms of possibility that the forearm wounds were caused in the same way.

bullet holes in victims agreed...though from what I have read they did not go as far as to claim that the rifle was used  to cause the  being struck of banged into something type head injuries . They hint and suggest but that is really as far as they dared go.

Think of how a rifle may be used to strike another person.  Swung when holding the stock/butt...will live a distinct linear line on the victim when the barrel end makes contact. As a swung weapon this way it would be very unwieldly and impractical.  Nothing really points to this .
Swung when holding the barrel...again the balance is wrong and the small diameter of the barrel makes this highly likely to cause injuries to the hands of the person swinging it.  Hard to swing but would make a big impact on the victim when struck.
Thrusting with stock/butt end...as per how they do it in war films ...more credible but helps if the vistim is already low to the ground.

If struck with the stock/butt end repeatedly ...it should show blood and/or hairs and skin fragments embedded into the butt and its wood and any gaps in the consrtruction of the butt. Especially so if the butt/stock becomes damaged in the process. Traces of this having occurred will be extremely difficult for anyone to remove.

It is possible Ralph was struck on the head with another object and not the .22 automatic rifle. If the forensic is not there to back it up ..then the claim looks rather hollow ..whoever was responsible.

Conversely if the rifle was dropped onto its butt onto a fairly clean surface to cause the stock/butt to be broken we would not expect to see blood/hairs or skin fragments .

If already used in attacking Ralph it may at that time have not been broken but could have later become broken when dropped in the act of commiting suicide.

Careful and honest and full reporting of the rifle is required to establish the most likely scenario for the rifles condition and whether some scenarios can be reasonably excluded or not.

[paulg]

ah Hartley ..not an adult way to respond...have I touched a raw nerve,
back to debate..

attaching the picture.
While some of the bruises MAY have occurred from being struck with a rounded end object...from the bruise size..I would estimate something like a broad marker pen sized item being jabbed on his arm..if that was the true cause.
HOWEVER.....there is often one of them!!!..Gripping someone tightly.. too tightly can and does cause bruising and from a  strong grip such bruises can be formed on someones arm  in the manner of many of those seen on Ralphs forearm.  Is it not the case that when strangling cases are investigate bruising is sometimes indicative...not always but sometimed...just to put things in perspective.

It is credible that some or maybe all  of the claimed bruising on the arm may have arisen from Sheila gripping Ralphs arm very tightly.

I broad marker pen? Size of a gun silencer?

[grahameb]

You'll have to hit someone very hard indeed in order to break a bit off the butt of a rifle. Anyway why would anyone in their right mind turn a loaded gun round in order to hit someone with a rifle but, with the barrel towards themselves?

[grahameb]

ah Hartley ..not an adult way to respond...have I touched a raw nerve,
back to debate..

attaching the picture.
While some of the bruises MAY have occurred from being struck with a rounded end object...from the bruise size..I would estimate something like a broad marker pen sized item being jabbed on his arm..if that was the true cause.
HOWEVER.....there is often one of them!!!..Gripping someone tightly.. too tightly can and does cause bruising and from a  strong grip such bruises can be formed on someones arm  in the manner of many of those seen on Ralphs forearm.  Is it not the case that when strangling cases are investigate bruising is sometimes indicative...not always but sometimed...just to put things in perspective.

It is credible that some or maybe all  of the claimed bruising on the arm may have arisen from Sheila gripping Ralphs arm very tightly.

They certainly look like the half moon shapes that nails might make on a person?