Author Topic: 13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...  (Read 51508 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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You don't know what you are talking about, you are not a firearms expert, your talking rubbish as usual...

I own and use firearms. You on the other hand make up nonsense upon nonsense from claiming the ammunition purchased by Nevill was not 22LR (even going so far as to assert he bought 22 short so that it could be loaded in manually instead of using the magazine) to your bogus claim regarding follower marks to your bogus claims regarding crimp marks.

you have no evidence of an experts making these claims to the courts because these claims are not valid.

You engage in smoke and mirrors instead of a frank discussion of the actual evidence and facts.   

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Ds Jones returned to the scene from Jeremy's cottage at just after 11 am, and duly took possession of the sound moderator, and three other exhibits, all given the exhibit references of SBJ/1, SBJ/2, SBJ/3 and SBJ/4, by the exhibits officer. One nutter on the forum is still insisting that DS Jones did not return to whf on the morning of the shootings once he had gone to Jeremys cottage, but that nutter is simply out to cause mischief. According to the nutter, everyone who says anything which sheds a poor light on anything relied upon at trial to help convict Bamber as the killer, are all liars, but what does he know? He doesn't even agree with true facts like DS Jones returning back to the scene on the morning of 7th August 1985, but here is an extract taken from DS Jones typed witness statement, dated 3rd October 1985, page 3:- I then left DC Clark and Bamber and returned to white house farm. I then left white house farm and at about 11.15am the same day I went to 9 Head Street, Goldhanger, where I saw Bamber, DC Clark and a woman who I now know to be Ann Eaton"...

He didn't take any exhibits on the days of the murder.  Exhibit SBJ/1 was received from the family on Aug 12 and was cataloged as SBJ/1 on 8/13.  SBJ/2-4 were taken subsequent to this.  Jones didn't take anything from WHF on the day of the murders only the crime scene officers did such.

On top of making up that Jones took the moderator and other exhibits from WHF on this day you harm you credibility even more with the absurd allegation that Taff Jones kept the moderator at his desk for a month as a paperweight.  It is bad enough your claims are not based on any evidence but rather made up from thin air but worse you don't even make up things that make any sense.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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I own and use firearms  So do many murderers, robbers and terrorists, but that don't mean they know jack shit about ballistics. You on the other hand make up nonsense upon nonsense from claiming the ammunition purchased by Nevill Entries in the Dealors register, and Ralph Bambers firearms certificate, and the bill of sale, do not describe the ammunition sold to Ralph Bamber, as .22LR ammunition. Furthermore, the prosecution ballistic expert, Fletcher does not refer to the cartridge cases as all being .22LR , and in his hand written notes, and the typed version of his witness statement, Fletcher does not describe the individual cases as .22LR cartridge cases, he simply refers to the all as cartridge cases was not 22LR (even going so far as to assert he bought 22 short so that it could be loaded in manually instead of using the magazine) to your bogus claim regarding follower marks None of the cartridge cases which have ended up as part of the crime scene ammunition had a follower plate mark present upon them, evidence that some of the original cartridge cases bearing these marks have almost certainly been substituted, swapped, or replaced to your bogus claims regarding crimp marks Crimping marks upon the cartridge case and base of the bullet head exist and can be scientifically verified and relied upon to confirm or disprove that the bullets and the spent cartridge cases belonged to the same type and batch of ammunition, experts exist who can do such work, so your puny attempt to try and suggest it can't be done exposes you for what you are .

you have no evidence of an experts You have no idea what I have got, or what I can get access too making these claims to the courts because these claims are not valid New evidence has not yet been put before any court yet, so if I were you I'd keep my trap shut until such time as they have .

You engage in smoke and mirrors instead of a frank discussion of the actual evidence and facts No, it is you who constantly seeks to turn the new evidence into smoke and mirrors, you are basically a dick head, who knows nothing much .
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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He didn't take any exhibits on the days of the murder He did, he took possession of four seperate ones, which the exhibits officer labelled SBJ/1, SBJ/2, SBJ/3 and SBJ/4 on some subsequent occasion. DS Jones did not give these 4 items those exhibit references, he just seized them, or took them .  Exhibit SBJ/1 was received from the family on Aug 12 No, you are again wrong, DS Jones nor Peter EATon gave that silencer an exhibit reference at all. In fact, according to DI Cooks account, there was no exhibit label fixed to the sound moderator which he took to the lab' on 13th August 1985, non at all, so Cook a fixed a brown coloured CJA label upon which Cook wrote, SJ/1, he did not write SBJ /1. Cook explains this to the COLP investigators in 1991.and was cataloged as SBJ/1 on 8/13 No, it was not, it was given the exhibit reference of SJ/1 on this date, and as Cook explains to the COLP investigators in 1991, he labelled that Silencer SJ/1 on that occasion because he was not aware that DS Jones had a middle christian name of Brian. I am not bothered whether you choose to believe this or not, all that matters to me, is that what I am saying is true. It's Cooks truth, and its my truth, and to hell with your own opposing truth  .  SBJ/2-4 were taken subsequent to this.  Jones didn't take anything from WHF on the day of the murders He did, you nut jack, he took possession of the 4 exhibits I have been telling you about only the crime scene officers did such Again, that is not true, and to hell with what you think, or what your going to say in response .

On top of making up that Jones took the moderator and other exhibits from WHF on this day You really must be a nut jack to keep making up things which are definately not true like this, it wasn't all that long ago you were saying that DS Jones never left 9 Head Street to return to the scene on the morning of the 7th August 1985. You posted untruth after untruth declaring that I was a liar, and that I was making it up, but even though I kept assuring you that I was not making anything up, you continued to keep pouring all that garbage about me being the liar, when as it now stands you yourself have been exposed as the liar you harm you credibility I am not bothered what the likes of you think about me, it's irrellevant   even more with the absurd allegation that Taff Jones kept the moderator at his desk for a month as a paperweight Now, which sound moderator are you referring to?.  It is bad enough your claims are not based on any evidence Official documentary content is evidence, whether you like it or not, get real, stop making nonsense up but rather made up from thin air but worse you don't even make up things that make any sense You must have got a weird notion about what makes sense, or what doesn't .
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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Entries in the Dealors register, and Ralph Bambers firearms certificate, and the bill of sale, do not describe the ammunition sold to Ralph Bamber, as .22LR ammunition. Furthermore, the prosecution ballistic expert, Fletcher does not refer to the cartridge cases as all being .22LR , and in his hand written notes, and the typed version of his witness statement, Fletcher does not describe the individual cases as .22LR cartridge cases, he simply refers to the all as cartridge cases

1) The dealer says that on the firearms certificate he recorded that Nevill purchased 500 rounds of Eley 22 long rifle Subsonic Hollow Points.  22 long rifle is 22LR written out.  You have produced nothing to contradict this you have failed at proving you have a copy of Nevill's firearm certificate which means either you made up having a copy or it states what the firearms dealer claims so you won't post it because it proves you a liar. 

2) The gun purchased was chambered in 22LR so by definition that means the Eley subsonic hollow points purchased were 22LR

3) Eley didn't make subsonic hollow points in other 22 cartridges only 22LR.

4) Fletcher stated the 300 plus rounds of unfired ammunition were Eley 22LR subsonic Hollow points.

5) Fletcher stated the 25 cases used in commission of the murders were Eley brand and were identical to the cases of the unfired cartridges.

Your babble totally falls apart upon inspection of the evidence.   

None of the cartridge cases which have ended up as part of the crime scene ammunition had a follower plate mark present upon them, evidence that some of the original cartridge cases bearing these marks have almost certainly been substituted, swapped, or replaced

Complete nonsense. I have challenged you to post a reputable publication be it a book or journal article on ballistics which mentions follower marks having to be on the last case fired by a magazine and that the absence of such proves no cartridge was the last cartridge in the magazine.  You can't because such is sheer nonsense. 


Crimping marks upon the cartridge case and base of the bullet head exist and can be scientifically verified and relied upon to confirm or disprove that the bullets and the spent cartridge cases belonged to the same type and batch of ammunition, experts exist who can do such work, so your puny attempt to try and suggest it can't be done exposes you for what you are .

How much a bullet breaks up or expands determines whether crimping marks on bullets can even be found on a bullet fragment.  Crimping marks do not allow matching a bullet to a particular cartridge.


You have no idea what I have got, or what I can get access too so if I were you I'd keep my trap shut until such time as they have .

You have a big mouth and think if you should lies louder than anyone can shout the truth it will accomplish something but it doesn't.  Evidence speaks louder than words and you have none just unsupported allegations that make no sense and are contradictory.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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1) The dealer says that on the firearms certificate he recorded that Nevill purchased 500 rounds of Eley 22 long rifle Subsonic Hollow Points No, that is not what is recorded at all, in the day to day  registry....  22 long rifle is 22LR written out I disagree, it does not say that at all in the day register .  You have produced nothing to contradict this you have failed at proving you have a copy of Nevill's firearm certificate I have Ralphs firearms certificate, it does not state that which you allege which means either you made up having a copy I have not made up anything, how many times do you need me to keep telling you that everything I have said is true or it states what the firearms dealer claims No, the firearms certificate in Ralph Bambers name, simply states ".22 subsonic", that's all so you won't post it because it proves you a liar I am not a liar, it is recorded as ".22 subsonic"...

2) The gun purchased was chambered in 22LR so by definition that means the Eley subsonic hollow points purchased were 22LR So, says you, but all the records at source refer to the ammunition sold to Ralph Bamber as .22 subsonic

3) Eley didn't make subsonic hollow points in other 22 cartridges they did, they produced 35 grain cartridges at a time when there was a shortage of .22 rimfire ammunition, worldwide...only 22LR.

4) Fletcher stated the 300 plus rounds of unfired ammunition were Eley 22LR subsonic Hollow points Not in his handwritten notes, he didn't, he simply refers to the individual cartridge cases, as .22 cartridge cases....

5) Fletcher stated the 25 cases used in commission of the murders were Eley brand This was at a time, after cartridge cases were switched in a substitution program, with test fired cartridge cases fired in the anshuzt rifle in what is now known as the unofficial test fire of the anshuzt rifle with Eley control ammunition, followed by an official test fire, again using the anshuzt rifle and Eley control ammunition, and comparison tests were done involving marks found on the unofficial substituted cartridge cases, against markings found on the official test fired Eley control ammunition, with the inevitable conclusion that replaced cartridge cases, and official test fire cases had been fired via the same gun - they used a common trick to fool everybody into thinking that this had been a one good crime, which it wasn't and were identical to the cases of the unfired cartridges.

Your babble totally falls apart upon inspection of the evidence But you haven't properly inspected the evidence which I rely upon - what you do, is alter the material I am relying upon, turning it into something it is not, because without altering it you would be dumbstruck. So, you change the evidence by including things what you say, pretending that I said what you said, and then like the proper nut jack that you are, you call me a liar. Well, carry on nutjack, carry on, at the end of the day you are calling yourself a liar, because you have fraudulently altered what I have said, and then you accuse me of saying the things that you yourself have made up and altered....   

Complete nonsense. I have challenged you to post a reputable publication be it a book or journal article on ballistics which mentions follower marks having to be on the last case fired by a magazine and that the absence of such proves no cartridge was the last cartridge in the magazine.  You can't because such is sheer nonsense.  Nutjack, you keep looking for that material yourself, no doubt if you don't find it, you'll deny that you even looked for it, carry on, it's an open playing field, make up whatever you feel you need to, it'll all be garbage in any event...


How much a bullet breaks up or expands determines whether crimping marks on bullets can even be found on a bullet fragment.  Crimping marks do not allow matching a bullet to a particular cartridge They do, when the ammunition in question has been manufactured by a different ammunition manufacturer  .


You have a big mouth and think if you should lies louder than anyone can shout the truth it will accomplish something but it doesn't.  Evidence speaks louder than words and you have none just unsupported allegations that make no sense and are contradictory So says you, who cannot accept real evidence that is documented in the gun dealers register, on the bill of sale, and in Ralph Bambers firearms certificate, and in the hand written notes of Fletcher, where he describes them as .22 cartridges.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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He did, he took possession of four seperate ones, which the exhibits officer labelled SBJ/1, SBJ/2, SBJ/3 and SBJ/4.  DS Jones did not give these 4 items those exhibit references, he just seized them, or took them.

Post evidence.  You were not present so you can't have seen him take them.  You claim he took them but no one recorded it anywhere so how could you know this?  In order to establish you didn't simply make the claim up or someone else didn't make it up you need to reveal evidence upon which this claim is based.  You have no such evidence this claim was simply made up.

The documentary evidence from police documents assert SBJ/1 was received from Peter Eaton by Stan Jones on Aug 12 and that on Aug 13 Jones transferred it to Cook to catalog it into evidence and to send it to the lab the same day. Lab documentary evidence indicates it was received by the lab that day and that on the following day (Aug 14) police were notified that human blood was found inside/outside the moderator and paint was on the knurled tip.  SBJ/2-4 were recorded as being taken at later dates.

Your claims are not supported by any of this evidence and in fact are refuted by this evidence.  So you need to produce evidence that refutes the police evidence.  You have none you just keep making allegations of things you can't possibly know happened without any basis for claiming they happened.

As the proponent of revisionist claims contrary to the documented evidence in this case you bear the burden or proof but have no proof.  You have no documents that support your claims nor any witnesses.

"Exhibit SBJ/1 was received from the family on Aug 12"
No, you are again wrong, DS Jones nor Peter EATon gave that silencer an exhibit reference at all. In fact, according to DI Cooks account, there was no exhibit label fixed to the sound moderator which he took to the lab' on 13th August 1985, non at all, so Cook a fixed a brown coloured CJA label upon which Cook wrote, SJ/1, he did not write SBJ /1. Cook explains this to the COLP investigators in 1991.

This is a perfect example of you making a strawman argument and also lying.  A straman argument is an argument someone didn't make but you pretend they made in order to pretend you are proving them wrong and this is done to deflect from the actual arguments.  I never claimed that Eaton or Jones stuck a label on the moderator.  I said that Eaton gave it to Jones on the 12th and Jones presented it to Cook on the 13th for Cook to catalog and then send to the lab.  SO far from proving me wrong you simply confirmed what I said about it being given to Cook and him cataloging it and sending it to the lab.  You are outright lying about Cook's COLP statement He said he recorded SBJ/1 on the label.  He said he wrote in his notes he was going to label it SJ/1 HOWEVER he learned that Jones has a middle initial so he ended up recording it as SBJ/1.  I have proved you a liar on this so many times that it boggles the mind you continue to lie about it. It just demonstrates you lack integrity and credibility.   



Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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Post evidence.  You were not present so you can't have seen him take them.  You claim he took them but no one recorded it anywhere so how could you know this?  In order to establish you didn't simply make the claim up or someone else didn't make it up you need to reveal evidence upon which this claim is based.  You have no such evidence this claim was simply made up. The other three exhibits taken from the scene by DS Jones on morning of 7th August 1985, were logged in the original MAJOR INCIDENT PROPERTY REGISTER, that is, items SBJ/4, SBJ/3, SBJ/2, yet for some reason, no item bearing exhibit SBJ/1 is recorded there, so if DS Jones seized items SBJ/2, SBJ/3 and SBJ/4 at the scene on the morning of 7th August 1985, what other item did DS Jones take from whf that morning, bearing the exhibit reference of SBJ/1? Just answer me that very basic enquiry...

The documentary evidence from police documents assert SBJ/1 was received from Peter Eaton by Stan Jones on Aug 12 No, it does not assert that at all. Since, on the 13th August 1985, when Cook took that silencer to the lab' to be examined by Howard, he told COLP there was no exhibit label at all attached to that particular silencer, despite it allegedly having been found 3 days previously? Cook had to attach his own exhibit label onto that silencer, and he marked it on that date with the exhibit reference SJ/1. It is misleading and totally inaccurate to suggest that there was only one silencer, and that it was found as long ago as 10th August and had always had the exhibit mark of SBJ/1. How odd then that on the 30th November 1985, police send a silencer to the lab', now bearing the identifying mark of DB/1, and much later, another silencer sent along to the lab' on the 20th September 1985, bearing an exhibit refrence of DRB/1and that on Aug 13 Jones transferred it to Cook to catalog it into evidence and to send it to the lab the same day Not as exhibit SBJ/1, it was not.... Lab documentary evidence indicates it was received by the lab that day and that on the following day (Aug 14) police were notified that human blood was found inside/outside the moderator and paint was on the knurled tip.  SBJ/2-4 were recorded as being taken at later dates. Not true, you haven't got a grasp of how all these different silencers have been merged together as being one and the same, but the truth is that they have...

Your claims are not supported by any of this evidence Yes, my claims are supported by documents in my possession and in fact are refuted by this evidence After you have altered its contents .  So you need to produce evidence that refutes the police evidence. Easy   You have none So, says you you just keep making allegations of things you can't possibly know happened without any basis for claiming they happened. So, says you

As the proponent of revisionist claims contrary to the documented evidence in this case you bear the burden or proof but have no proof Don't worry about me, I have all the support and evidence I need to prove everything I am saying .  You have no documents that support your claims nor any witnesses.

This is a perfect example of you making a strawman argument and also lying.  A straman argument is an argument someone didn't make but you pretend they made in order to pretend you are proving them wrong and this is done to deflect from the actual arguments.  I never claimed that Eaton or Jones stuck a label on the moderator.  I said that Eaton gave it to Jones on the 12th and Jones presented it to Cook on the 13th for Cook to catalog and then send to the lab.  SO far from proving me wrong you simply confirmed what I said about it being given to Cook and him cataloging it and sending it to the lab.  You are outright lying about Cook's COLP statement He said he recorded SBJ/1 on the label.  He said he wrote in his notes he was going to label it SJ/1 HOWEVER he learned that Jones has a middle initial so he ended up recording it as SBJ/1.  I have proved you a liar on this so many times that it boggles the mind you continue to lie about it. It just demonstrates you lack integrity and credibility.   




"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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"1) The dealer says that on the firearms certificate he recorded that Nevill purchased 500 rounds of Eley 22 long rifle Subsonic Hollow Points"

No, that is not what is recorded at all in the day to day  registry....

Again with your strawman deflections and distortions.  I am discussing what the dealer said he wrote on the firearms certificate.  You either don't have a copy of that certificate thus are in no position to be able to contradict him or have a copy of the certificate but refuse to post it because it confirms what the dealer said and you want to continue to lie and pretend it doesn't state such.

In the meantime the dealer book states 22 Subsonic Hollow Points which means 22LR Subsonic  Hollow Points because it is the only Subsonic Hollow points that were being marketed by Eley and more importantly the gun sold to Nevill was chambered in 22LR.  Your suggestions that though Nevill wanted ammunition for the rifle he purchased, he was sold ammunition of a different type than his rifle used is ABSURD. He was sold ammunition to use in his rifle, that rifle was chambered in 22LR and thus he was sold 500 rounds of 22LR ammunition.  It went without saying that it was 22LR which is why he didn't bother to record it in his sales book as 22LR.

Your nonsense would be akin to looking at the receipt from when I bought my M1911 .45 Colt Pistol and 200 rounds of 45 caliber ammunition and seeing 45 caliber ammo on the receipt and then suggesting that because the receipt  doesn't specify it is 45 APC that I likely bought 45 Long ammunition even though that is for a Colt revolver not the pistol I purchased. You are simply trying to play stupid games and look like a dishonest fool by so doing.     


22 long rifle is 22LR written out I disagree, it does not say that at all in the day register .

It doesn't have to be written out.  22LR is the default when someone refers to .22 rimfire.  He wrote the Anschutz 525 was .22 caliber.  The Anschutz 525 is chambered ONLY in 22LR it is not made by the manufacturer in any other caliber.  He was referring to 22LR when he wrote 22 caliber for the rifle and when he wrote it for the ammunition.  You are just playing stupid games that lead no where.

 
No, the firearms certificate in Ralph Bambers name, simply states ".22 subsonic", that's all so you won't post it because it proves you a liar I am not a liar, it is recorded as ".22 subsonic"....

Eley only made subsonic in 22LR and 22 short.  By your own admission it doesn't state 22 Short subsonic.  ".22" means 22LR.  It is the default .22 rimfire cartridge.  When talking about ANY other cartridge the suffix has to be mentioned.  22 Short is not called simply "22" .  The gun was chambered in 22LR and that is the ammunition the dealer sold to Nevill.  You are just humiliating yourself suggesting he sold a different caliber than the weapon utilized.   


 
"2) The gun purchased was chambered in 22LR so by definition that means the Eley subsonic hollow points purchased were 22LR"
So, says you, but all the records at source refer to the ammunition sold to Ralph Bamber as .22 subsonic

So says the dealer- the dealers said .22 means 22LR on the forms and logic and custom confirm his claims.  It is custom to call .22LR simply ".22" or ".22 rimfire".  It is illogical to sell him different ammunition than the rifle used.

"3) Eley didn't make subsonic hollow points in other 22 cartridges only 22LR"

they did, they produced 35 grain cartridges at a time when there was a shortage of .22 rimfire ammunition, worldwide....

Your source claims the 35 grain bullets are 22LR genius and in the meantime your source is wrong the actual grain was 37.5 or 40 depending upon which  22LR Hollow Point was being purchased.

"4) Fletcher stated the 300 plus rounds of unfired ammunition were Eley 22LR subsonic Hollow points" Not in his handwritten notes, he didn't, he simply refers to the individual cartridge cases, as .22 cartridge cases....

So what, he can write any short hand he feels like in his notes.  He is free to write .22 instead of 22LR anytime he wants- they mean the same exact thing.  If someone used the term .22 unless otherwise specified they mean 22LR. You want to ignore his report simply because it proves you wrong.

5) This was at a time, after cartridge cases were switched in a substitution program, with test fired cartridge cases fired in the anshuzt rifle in what is now known as the unofficial test fire of the anshuzt rifle with Eley control ammunition, followed by an official test fire, again using the anshuzt rifle and Eley control ammunition, and comparison tests were done involving marks found on the unofficial substituted cartridge cases, against markings found on the official test fired Eley control ammunition, with the inevitable conclusion that replaced cartridge cases, and official test fire cases had been fired via the same gun - they used a common trick to fool everybody into thinking that this had been a one good crime, which it wasn't and were identical to the cases of the unfired cartridges.

You have zero support for these allegations they are simply unsupported allegations made up based on nothing other than the desire to pretend that Jeremy was framed and the allegations make no sense at all. 

The only unfired  22LR ammunition at WHF before and after the murders was the ammunition purchased by Nevill.  The only 22LR gun present to be used in the murders was the ammunition purchased by Nevill. The spent ammunition used int he murders was the ammunition purchased by Nevill. The only 22LR chambered firearm at WHF during and after the murders was the Anschutz.

Your claims to the contrary are not only baseless but worse make no sense and are totally ridiculous. If police found evidence that another weapon and ammunition were brought to the scene and used it would further prove their claims that Sheila wasn't the killer and that woudl further undermine Jeremy's babble about having received a phone call from Nevill claiming sheila was running around with his rifle. Police would not doctor such evidence to Jeremy's benefit.  Your claims make zero sense on top of having zero evidentiary support.

But you haven't properly inspected the evidence which I rely upon - what you do, is alter the material I am relying upon, turning it into something it is not, because without altering it you would be dumbstruck. So, you change the evidence by including things what you say, pretending that I said what you said, and then like the proper nut jack that you are, you call me a liar. Well, carry on nutjack, carry on, at the end of the day you are calling yourself a liar, because you have fraudulently altered what I have said, and then you accuse me of saying the things that you yourself have made up and altered....

You haven't posted any evidence to support your claims.  Everything you have cited proves the complete opposite of what you assert.  You keep intentionally distorting such as trying to sell the absurd tale that Nevill purchased ammo for his rifle that his rifle would not be able to fire.  His rifle was chambered in 22LR and that is what Nevill purchased.  Your supposed evidence that he didn't doesn't hold up.  The "22"  on the paperwork means 22LR.  The seller said so and the 300 plus rounds of unfired 22LR ammunition at WHF prove it.  You are playing worthless games.

Your lied about Cook telling COLP he attached a label marked SJ/1 doesn't hold up either.  He stated that he wrote SBJ/1 on the label and on the Holab form.   Since this was pointed out so many times to you it means you are not merely wrong but intentionally lying. 

In the meantime you offer ZERO evidence that Jones took the moderator from the scene on the day of the murders and zero evidence that bullets and casings were switched by the lab.  I am not misreading your proof you offer no proof for such claims.  You have no evidentiary basis for such claims these allegations are simply made up out of thin air. 

"Complete nonsense. I have challenged you to post a reputable publication be it a book or journal article on ballistics which mentions follower marks having to be on the last case fired by a magazine and that the absence of such proves no cartridge was the last cartridge in the magazine.  You can't because such is sheer nonsense."
Nutjack, you keep looking for that material yourself, no doubt if you don't find it, you'll deny that you even looked for it, carry on, it's an open playing field, make up whatever you feel you need to, it'll all be garbage in any event...

You bear the burden of proof as the proponent of the claim.  You can't post anything in support of this because it is nonsense.  I don't need to prove a negative you bear the burden of proving it.

"How much a bullet breaks up or expands determines whether crimping marks on bullets can even be found on a bullet fragment.  Crimping marks do not allow matching a bullet to a particular cartridge"
They do, when the ammunition in question has been manufactured by a different ammunition manufacturer  .

You have not produced any evidence that any of the bullet fragments even had crimping marks remaining let alone that it could be demonstrated the bullets were a different brand by such.  In the meantime you contradict yourself and claim they were switched.

You have zero basis to make any claims.  You just make crap up and that's that. 

 
So says you, who cannot accept real evidence that is documented in the gun dealers register, on the bill of sale, and in Ralph Bambers firearms certificate, and in the hand written notes of Fletcher, where he describes them as .22 cartridges.

It says .22 Anschutz and .22 cartridges.  Both mean 22LR- .22= 22LR.  The same way when I say my .45 pistol I mean .45 ACP.  You are simply playing worthless games and they make you look like a dishonest clown.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 04:19:AM by scipio_usmc »
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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(YOU SAID THIS) The dealer says that on the firearms certificate he recorded that Nevill purchased 500 rounds of Eley 22 long rifle Subsonic Hollow Points"

(I SAID THIS)..No, that is not what is recorded at all in the day to day  registry....

Again with your strawman deflections and distortions.  I am discussing what the dealer said he wrote on the firearms certificate.  You either don't have a copy of that certificate thus are in no position to be able to contradict him or have a copy of the certificate but refuse to post it because it confirms what the dealer said and you want to continue to lie and pretend it doesn't state such.

Here you are, attributing things you said as though I said it, you are an obnoxious individual who appears not to have any scruples. You do what you want twisting the truth to show support for the dodgy evidence relied upon to convict an innocent man for these murders...

You say things, then dishonestly imply that I said what you said, DUMBO, ER DER, ER DER, ER DER...
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 12:13:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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The other three exhibits taken from the scene by DS Jones on morning of 7th August 1985, were logged in the original MAJOR INCIDENT PROPERTY REGISTER, that is, items SBJ/4, SBJ/3, SBJ/2, yet for some reason, no item bearing exhibit SBJ/1 is recorded there, so if DS Jones seized items SBJ/2, SBJ/3 and SBJ/4 at the scene on the morning of 7th August 1985, what other item did DS Jones take from whf that morning, bearing the exhibit reference of SBJ/1? Just answer me that very basic enquiry...

There is nothing logged into any property register as being taken from WHF on August 7 by Stan Jones or anything taken period by him from anywhere on August 7 and logged into evidence.  SBJ/1 is the first item he took and that pertains to the moderator he tool from the Eatons.  SBJ/2-4 are recorded as being taken by him SUBSEQUENT to SBJ/1.  You are lying about this just like you keep lying about what Cook told COLP. 


"The documentary evidence from police documents assert SBJ/1 was received from Peter Eaton by Stan Jones on Aug 12"
No, it does not assert that at all. Since, on the 13th August 1985, when Cook took that silencer to the lab' to be examined by Howard, he told COLP there was no exhibit label at all attached to that particular silencer, despite it allegedly having been found 3 days previously? Cook had to attach his own exhibit label onto that silencer, and he marked it on that date with the exhibit reference SJ/1.

Cook is the crime scene officer it is his job to attach the labels and to record the items. He was not on duty when Stan Jones retrieved the moderator from the Eatons so he stored it until the next day and on that day transferred it to Cook. I posted the excerpts from Cook's statement regarding it, he said he wrote SBJ/1 on the label and the Holab form not SJ/1.  You keep lying about this like you lie about so much else.  AS plain as day he said that he planned to write SJ/1 but he learned the middle name of Jones and thus recorded SBJ/1 on the label and Holab forms. The funny thing is you continue lying through your teeth even when evidence is posted proving you are lying.  That doesn't help your image at all.

The last line states as clear as day it was marked SBJ/1 and this is from his COLP interview:





It is misleading and totally inaccurate to suggest that there was only one silencer, and that it was found as long ago as 10th August and had always had the exhibit mark of SBJ/1. How odd then that on the 30th November 1985, police send a silencer to the lab', now bearing the identifying mark of DB/1, and much later, another silencer sent along to the lab' on the 20th September 1985, bearing an exhibit refrence of DRB/1and that on Aug 13 Jones transferred it to Cook to catalog it into evidence and to send it to the lab the same day Not as exhibit SBJ/1, it was not....

No it is misleading to keep lying as you do. Only one moderator was at WHF at the time of the murders and after.  It was turned over by the Eatons to Stan Jones on the 12th of August.  It was initially labeled SBJ/1 because Jones was unsure who found it.  Later after it was ascertained the finder was Boutflour it was changed to DB/1 but because the initials DB were already in use his middle initial was added and it was changed to DRB/1.  Your claims are complete nonsense that COLP prove false in 1991.  You carry on with the same disproved lies no matter what.

 
"Lab documentary evidence indicates it was received by the lab that day and that on the following day (Aug 14) police were notified that human blood was found inside/outside the moderator and paint was on the knurled tip.  SBJ/2-4 were recorded as being taken at later dates."
Not true, you haven't got a grasp of how all these different silencers have been merged together as being one and the same, but the truth is that they have...

It is absolutely true that SBJ2-4 were collected and logged into evidence subsequent to SBJ/1 being sent to the lab.  It is thus absolutely true that your claim SBJ/1-4 were taken from WHF by Jones on the day of the murders is false.

There was only 1 moderator at WHF and if there had been more there still would not have been any need to hide such.  You keep parroting allegations that never made a lick of sense that were proved wrong long ago.

"Your claims are not supported by any of this evidence"
Yes, my claims are supported by documents in my possession

Nonsense.  The claim you have documents proving items were seized by Jones on August 7 is not in the least bit believable.  If you actually had such documents you would have posted them by now. In the meantime COLP would have had them first and would not have rejected the allegations if such evidence existed. 

You have zilch to challenge the official account just allegations that make no sense and have already been proven false. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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There is nothing logged into any property register as being taken from WHF on August 7 by Stan Jones or anything taken period by him from anywhere on August 7 and logged into evidence Yes, there is, how would you know considering you don't have possession of the documentary evidence confirming that What I say to be true .  SBJ/1 is the first item he took and that pertains to the moderator he tool from the Eatons.  SBJ/2-4 are recorded as being taken by him SUBSEQUENT to SBJ/ [/b] So, if we mistakenly accept what you say regarding this matter, then the sound moderator, could not ever have had the original exhibit reference of SJ/1 on 13th August 1985, when Cook took it along to the lab' to be shown to Glynis Howard? If we accept your proposition as being true, then David Boutflour cannot have found a sound moderator marked with the exhibit reference of DRB/1 at the scene 3 days previously bearing the identifying mark of DRB/1. Since, using your warped sense of logic, the sound moderator had the exhibit reference of SBJ/1 when it was taken to the lab' by Cook on the 13th August 1985, would that be a fair assessment of what you are trying to argue? [/b]1.  You are lying about thisb Look, pea brain, I am not lying about anything, since if DAV d Boutflour found silencer DRB/1 at the scene on 10th August, then how come by the time the same silencer is supposedly handed over to DS Jones by Peter Eaton on evening of 12th August 1985, both DS Jones, and Peter Eaton refer to the exhibit reference of that silencer, as having been DRB/1 at that time? If you are right, how could the silencer have had an exhibit defence of DRB/1 on the 10th August and the 12th August 1985, respectively, yet on the 13th August same year, it had a completely different exhibit label reference of SBJ/1, upon it? just like you keep lying about what Cook told COLP If what you claim, Cook told COLP investigators that the silencer had a label marked SBJ/1 by the time Cook had taken the silencer to the lab' on the 13th August 1985, then it would be an impossibility for David Boutfloyr, and others, to reference to the silencer bearing the exhibit reference of DRB/1, on any occasion beforehand. This in turn would cast very serious doubt upon the prosecution claim that all these different references to a different exhibit reference for any silencer prior to that 13th August silencer bearing the exhibit reference of SBJ/1. That silencer could not ever have had an exhibit reference of DRB/1, before it had ever been referred to as exhibit SBJ/1, so on any instance where it is claimed the silencer had an identifying mark of SBJ/1, the same silencer found by David Boutlour at the scene bearing an exhibit reference of DRB/1 beforehand has to be regarded as completely wrong, is that the gist of what you are saying? Because if that's what you are saying, you are more stupid than I first thought you are, since in the grand scheme of things, how on earth could the silencer found at the scene in a cupboard on the 10th August 1985, have attached to it by 10th August 1985, an exhibit label marked DRB/1, if three days later it had a contradictory exhibit reference SBJ/1 attached to it when Cook first took the silencer to the lab' to show it to Howard?

If that be the case, then how on gods earth could David Boutfliur (10th August), and Peter Eaton (12th August)'refer to the exhibit reference of DRB/1; since Cook himself had no involvement with the silencer in question, prior to the 13th August 1985? The exhibit reference of that silencer can never have had a different label attached to it in any other occasion prior to the 13th August 1985, Otherwise you are suggesting that it is somewhat alright to keep referring to the wrong sequence of events insofar as the order which the prosecuting authorities say the various exhibit references had come into existence (SJ/1, then SBJ/1, followed by DB/1; then DRB/1?
Cook is the crime scene officer it is his job to attach the labels and to record the items. He was not on duty when Stan Jones retrieved the moderator from the Eatons so he stored it until the next day and on that day transferred it to Cook. I posted the excerpts from Cook's statement regarding it, he said he wrote SBJ/1 on the label and the Holab form not SJ/1.  You keep lying about this like you lie about so much else.  AS plain as day he said that he planned to write SJ/1 but he learned the middle name of Jones and thus recorded SBJ/1 on the label and Holab forms. The funny thing is you continue lying through your teeth even when evidence is posted proving you are lying.  That doesn't help your image at all.

The last line states as clear as day it was marked SBJ/1 and this is from his COLP interview:





No it is misleading to keep lying as you do. Only one moderator was at WHF at the time of the murders and after.  It was turned over by the Eatons to Stan Jones on the 12th of August.  It was initially labeled SBJ/1 because Jones was unsure who found it.  Later after it was ascertained the finder was Boutflour it was changed to DB/1 but because the initials DB were already in use his middle initial was added and it was changed to DRB/1.  Your claims are complete nonsense that COLP prove false in 1991.  You carry on with the same disproved lies no matter what.

 
It is absolutely true that SBJ2-4 were collected and logged into evidence subsequent to SBJ/1 being sent to the lab.  It is thus absolutely true that your claim SBJ/1-4 were taken from WHF by Jones on the day of the murders is false.

There was only 1 moderator at WHF and if there had been more there still would not have been any need to hide such.  You keep parroting allegations that never made a lick of sense that were proved wrong long ago.

Nonsense.  The claim you have documents proving items were seized by Jones on August 7 is not in the least bit believable.  If you actually had such documents you would have posted them by now. In the meantime COLP would have had them first and would not have rejected the allegations if such evidence existed. 

You have zilch to challenge the official account just allegations that make no sense and have already been proven false.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 06:24:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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What you are claiming is absolutely wrong, and very dishonest, since in the grand scheme of things, the exhibit reference to the silencer could never have existed other than in the following sequence,  SJ/1, SBJ/1, DB/1; and lastly, DRB/1. Your version of events, ignores all this, and plummets head first, turning the sequence of events upside down, which is one of your traits, you alter and change things around when it suites your own purpose...
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 09:53:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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David Boutflour falsified the contents of his witness statement where he describes  having found the silencer on 10th August as having the identifying exhibit reference DRB/1, at which time that exhibit could not have got the aforementioned  exhibit reference (DRB/1)...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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What you are claiming is absolutely wrong, and very dishonest, since in the grand scheme of things, the exhibit reference to the silencer could never have existed other than in the following sequence,  SJ/1, SBJ/1, DB/1; and lastly, DRB/1. Your version of events, ignores all this, and plummets head first, turning the sequence of events upside down, which is one of your traits, you alter and change things around when it suites your own purpose...

All you are doing is projecting.  You are the one lying through your teeth.  You dishonestly assert there were multiple moderators at the scene which were merged into 1 which makes no sense.  It makes no sense for there to have been more than 1 moderator there, there is no evidence more than 1 moderator had been there and there is no reason why police would have merged multiple moderators to conceal their finding. 

Furthermore you keep lying about what Cook said in his statement.  He said that he planned to issue SJ/1 to the moderator found by Boutflour but he found out Stan Jones' full initials and thus wound up issuing it a label mark SBJ/1 and wrote such on the Holab forms as well.  You keep falsely claiming he issued a label bearing SJ/1 though he said no such thing he said SBJ/1.  He said that it was later changed to DB/1 when they were put on notice of who actually found it but they subsequently realized prefix DB was already in use by David Bird so they added Boutflour's middle initial and change dit to DRB/1.

The lab actually has documentation reflecting police telling the about the changes. The police claims are all documented.  Your lstupid allegaitons totally fall apart under scrutiny and reading Cook's statement reveals you are a liar you grossly misrepresent what he claimed.  He never claimed writing up a label for the moderator with SJ/1 on it and writing such on the paperwork.  He said he placed a label bearing SBJ/1 and wrote such on the Holab forms.  Your lies simply render you a joke.   

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry