13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...

[scipio_usmc]

Sorry I meant case not jacket.  I was merely saying that the whole bullet may have weighed in a 37 due to the loss of its case, thus meaning that the entire bullet must have weighed in at more than 37. 

Anyhow, I don't know much about bullets and guns as I run a gun shop....

You don't have to know anything about bullets to see how Mike's claims totally fall apart.  Mike alleges:

a) That Nevill purchased 35 grain bullets
b) That Fletcher swapped out of the bullets recovered from the victims and scene and replaced them with bullets that he test fired
c) Proof that they swapped in test fired bullets is some of the bullets weigh more than 35 grains

Mike is ignoring that Fletcher test fired bullets purchased by Nevill so whatever the weight of the bullets Nevill purchased the test fired bullets would be the same.  So his whole theory falls apart and he thus amended his theory by arguing Fletcher would be a complete moron and substituted 22LR bullets he test fired from some different brand that were larger than the ones Nevill purchased thus giving away that he substituted the bullets.   

But sometimes Mike takes a different tact. He argues the bullets were not swapped but rather are the genuine bullets used in the murders and then argues there were 3 different calibers of bullets used that were fired by 3 different weapons.   

Mike can't make up his mind of which allegation he prefers so keeps alternating between them.

Eley hasn't gotten back to me with a definitive answer of whether they maid a 35 grain subsonic hollow point and if so when they stopped selling it though it is rather obvious it was before 1984. They had a 37.5 grain hollow point selling side by side with their 40 grain in 1984 so in theory either could have been purchased. The 37.5 grain one was 2.44 grams and no fragment was larger than it so it is possible they were 37.5 grains.

The velocity stats for that 37.5 grain round is 1050/965 /895 which is the same stats on the sheet Mike posted.  This means one of 2 things- the sheet got the grains wrong or Eley raised the weight by 2.5 grains and raised the amount of gunpowder enough to match the velocity perfectly.  I am more inclined to believe the former- particularly since I can't find any reference to a 35 grain round and Eley seems to be having such a hard time finding it as well. It is unusual for references to be so hard to find unless a round was in existence for a very short period of time.

 

 

[David1819]

Eley hasn't gotten back to me with a definitive answer of whether they maid a 35 grain subsonic hollow point and if so when they stopped selling it though it is rather obvious it was before 1984. They had a 37.5 grain hollow point selling side by side with their 40 grain in 1984 so in theory either could have been purchased. The 37.5 grain one was 2.44 grams and no fragment was larger than it so it is possible they were 37.5 grains.
 

One can only take your word that this correspondence between you and Eley has taken place.

Secondly how do you expect them to know the specifications of what they produced over 30 years ago are the same staff sill employed?

Thirdly, I doubt a gun catalogue would make such a mistake

[Patti]

You don't have to know anything about bullets to see how Mike's claims totally fall apart.  Mike alleges:

a) That Nevill purchased 35 grain bullets
b) That Fletcher swapped out of the bullets recovered from the victims and scene and replaced them with bullets that he test fired
c) Proof that they swapped in test fired bullets is some of the bullets weigh more than 35 grains

Mike is ignoring that Fletcher test fired bullets purchased by Nevill so whatever the weight of the bullets Nevill purchased the test fired bullets would be the same.  So his whole theory falls apart and he thus amended his theory by arguing Fletcher would be a complete moron and substituted 22LR bullets he test fired from some different brand that were larger than the ones Nevill purchased thus giving away that he substituted the bullets.   

But sometimes Mike takes a different tact. He argues the bullets were not swapped but rather are the genuine bullets used in the murders and then argues there were 3 different calibers of bullets used that were fired by 3 different weapons.   

Mike can't make up his mind of which allegation he prefers so keeps alternating between them.

Eley hasn't gotten back to me with a definitive answer of whether they maid a 35 grain subsonic hollow point and if so when they stopped selling it though it is rather obvious it was before 1984. They had a 37.5 grain hollow point selling side by side with their 40 grain in 1984 so in theory either could have been purchased. The 37.5 grain one was 2.44 grams and no fragment was larger than it so it is possible they were 37.5 grains.

The velocity stats for that 37.5 grain round is 1050/965 /895 which is the same stats on the sheet Mike posted.  This means one of 2 things- the sheet got the grains wrong or Eley raised the weight by 2.5 grains and raised the amount of gunpowder enough to match the velocity perfectly.  I am more inclined to believe the former- particularly since I can't find any reference to a 35 grain round and Eley seems to be having such a hard time finding it as well. It is unusual for references to be so hard to find unless a round was in existence for a very short period of time.

 

 

I've always assumed they were 37.5 or 38. According to the rifle forum they raised the weight to 40 sometime in the late 80's.  Alls I know is that 2 different types of bullets were used at WHF.  Fletcher also went on to say and noted that several of the bullets had been loaded into the magazine before and taken out...

[Jan]

One can only take your word that this correspondence between you and Eley has taken place.

Secondly how do you expect them to know the specifications of what they produced over 30 years ago are the same staff sill employed?

Thirdly, I doubt a gun catalogue would make such a mistake

that's ok he can scan and post the reply (:

[scipio_usmc]

One can only take your word that this correspondence between you and Eley has taken place.

Secondly how do you expect them to know the specifications of what they produced over 30 years ago are the same staff sill employed?

Thirdly, I doubt a gun catalogue would make such a mistake

Are you seriously suggesting that Eley would not retain records of what they produced in the past?  Surely they would have records of whether they ever had a 35 grain subsonic hollow point and when they stopped making it.  Whether their employees will actually undertake the effort required to find out is the only thing uncertain.

The form Mike posted is not a catalog, it is a single sheet and we don't know when it is from or where it is from.  It is the only reference anyone could find to a 35 grain subsonic hollow point from Eley.  No boxes no price lists no catalogs...

The Eley rep didn't make up a 37.5 grain subsonic hollow point there are references proving it exists. When they went into their craze of rebranding things "Xtra" it was rebranded as subsonic Hollow point Xtra. The 40 grain was branded subsonic Xtra Plus subsonic Hollow point.  They stopped making the 37.5 grain 10-12 years ago. They recently did away with many of the Xtra varities such as Club Xtra which was rebranded simply Club and at the same time they rebranded the 40 grain subsonic Hollow point simply Subsonic Hollow point.

I have actually seen the boxes and references in various sources to the 37.5 grain ammo while references for 35 grain can't be found. Their catalogs list the 37.5 grain and even shooting magazines mention such in their tables.  Tables like this

http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/22lrballistics.htm

Subsonic Xtra HP, .22 LR   37.5 gr   1050 / 92   965 / 77   895 / 67

If they did sell a 35 grain it was before Nevill bought his gun and so long ago that there are no references to be found.

[David1819]

Are you seriously suggesting that Eley would not retain records of what they produced in the past?  Surely they would have records of whether they ever had a 35 grain subsonic hollow point and when they stopped making it.  Whether their employees will actually undertake the effort required to find out is the only thing uncertain.

I find it difficult to understand why they would give you the time of day to look into your question.

Telephone rings  "Thanks for calling Eley Limited your through to reception how can I help?"
Scipio "Hi can you confirm that you did or did not produce Eley 35 grain 22 calibre subsonic hollow points in 1985?"

lol

I am sure records exist but I doubt current employees will know, considering the staff turnover and new management and new ownership over the last 30 odd years. Its better to ask a UK based gun shop owner who has been in the business over 35 years.

[Patti]

I find it difficult to understand why they would give you the time of day to look into your question.

Telephone rings  "Thanks for calling Eley Limited your through to reception how can I help?"
Scipio "Hi can you confirm that you did or did not produce Eley 35 grain 22 calibre subsonic hollow points in 1985?"

lol

I am sure records exist but I doubt current employees will know, considering the staff turnover and new management and new ownership over the last 30 odd years. Its better to ask a UK based gun shop owner who has been in the business over 35 years.

Hi David

I would think most established company's will have archived all, if not most of their achievements.

Once I was looking for the first 4 wheeled motor cart that a long lost relative had driven back in the early 1900's. He worked for Pickfords who are a removals firm and who are still trading today. It was a long shot but, I wrote to them and a few weeks later I received a book of their history and inside was the first 4 wheeled engine cart...its amazing what company's have these days.  So with a bit of luck and good customer service. Eley will reply, whether they hold that information or not...at a guess I think they will....

[scipio_usmc]

I've always assumed they were 37.5 or 38. According to the rifle forum they raised the weight to 40 sometime in the late 80's.  Alls I know is that 2 different types of bullets were used at WHF.  Fletcher also went on to say and noted that several of the bullets had been loaded into the magazine before and taken out...

How do you know 2 types of ammunition were used at WHF? Unless you mean in general and mean shotgun shells and 22LR rifle bullets as opposed to used to commit the murders there is no support for such a claim.  Fletcher didn't assert such.  The seller said he sold 500 rounds of subsonic hollow point, all the unspent rifle ammo was subsonic hollow point. The ammunition used for the murders was all the same regardless of whether it was 40 grain or 37.5 grain that Nevill purchased. 

Forums are not the best place to find information necessarily.  Their subsonic line consisted of 3 products-1) 40 grain subsonic solid 2) 37.5 subsonic hollow point and 3) 40 grain subsonic hollow point all were sold side by side for a while, the 40 grain didn't replace the 37.5 grain except int he sense that it made the 37.5 unpopular so Eley killed production.  The 37.5 grain hollow point and subsonic solid were discontinued well before Eley's latest rebranding.  In 2008 they rebranded their products- the sole survivor of the subsonic line was rebranded as "Subsonic Hollow".

 

[scipio_usmc]

I find it difficult to understand why they would give you the time of day to look into your question.

Telephone rings  "Thanks for calling Eley Limited your through to reception how can I help?"
Scipio "Hi can you confirm that you did or did not produce Eley 35 grain 22 calibre subsonic hollow points in 1985?"

lol

I am sure records exist but I doubt current employees will know, considering the staff turnover and new management and new ownership over the last 30 odd years. Its better to ask a UK based gun shop owner who has been in the business over 35 years.

Who uses the phone anymore?  We are in email contact.  I got an email reply monday and a follow up from him today about the 37.5 grain even though I didn't specifically ask about it so he already did more than you assumed he would.  Only the technical department can locate info far enough back to address the 35 grain issue.  It is out of his hands when and whether the technical department will answer the questions he said he posed to them of whether Eley made a 35 grain subsonic hollow point and if so when it was discontinued.  It doesn't matter how new the workers are it just matters whether they will actually take the time and effort to look it up. There is no harm in trying and if I didn't try the 37.5 grain would not have been brought to our attention so we already got something from it.  If the technical department ignores him we are still better off than we were a few days ago.







   

[Patti]

How do you know 2 types of ammunition were used at WHF? Unless you mean in general and mean shotgun shells and 22LR rifle bullets as opposed to used to commit the murders there is no support for such a claim.  Fletcher didn't assert such.  The seller said he sold 500 rounds of subsonic hollow point, all the unspent rifle ammo was subsonic hollow point. The ammunition used for the murders was all the same regardless of whether it was 40 grain or 37.5 grain that Nevill purchased. 

Forums are not the best place to find information necessarily.  Their subsonic line consisted of 3 products-1) 40 grain subsonic solid 2) 37.5 subsonic hollow point and 3) 40 grain subsonic hollow point all were sold side by side for a while, the 40 grain didn't replace the 37.5 grain except int he sense that it made the 37.5 unpopular so Eley killed production.  The 37.5 grain hollow point and subsonic solid were discontinued well before Eley's latest rebranding.  In 2008 they rebranded their products- the sole survivor of the subsonic line was rebranded as "Subsonic Hollow".

 

I am basing it on this...

[scipio_usmc]

I am basing it on this...

That asserts some were .22LR subsonic hollow, some were .22LR standard velocity solid  and some were 22 LR high velocity solid so 3 different types of .22LR ammo used.  However it was created by some unknown Jeremy supporter and doesn't list any source for the claims. Nothing drafted by Fletcher references anything bus subsonic hollow points, the seller of the ammunition only referenced subsonic hollow points as being purchased and owned, Jeremy and AP bother referenced the ammo at WHF as being subsonic hollow points.  The portion of Fletcher's testimony posted here didn't discuss any high velocity or standard solid rounds.

A Jeremy supporter decided to interpret something as suggesting some were standard and high velocity solid rounds but unless we find a companion document explaining why or find the author to ask we can't know the basis of the claim it is just unsupported allegation.  That is why I wanted to know who created the chart to try to see if there were a way to ask where the claims came from. 

If solid rounds were used it would have raised red flags in light of all the unspent ammo at the scene being hollow points and what was purchased being hollow points.  So the notion Fletcher noted such somewhere and police, defense lawyers etc never addressed it is not credible.

 

[Patti]

That asserts some were .22LR subsonic hollow, some were .22LR standard velocity solid  and some were 22 LR high velocity solid so 3 different types of .22LR ammo used.  However it was created by some unknown Jeremy supporter and doesn't list any source for the claims. Nothing drafted by Fletcher references anything bus subsonic hollow points, the seller of the ammunition only referenced subsonic hollow points as being purchased and owned, Jeremy and AP bother referenced the ammo at WHF as being subsonic hollow points.  The portion of Fletcher's testimony posted here didn't discuss any high velocity or standard solid rounds.

A Jeremy supporter decided to interpret something as suggesting some were standard and high velocity solid rounds but unless we find a companion document explaining why or find the author to ask we can't know the basis of the claim it is just unsupported allegation.  That is why I wanted to know who created the chart to try to see if there were a way to ask where the claims came from. 

If solid rounds were used it would have raised red flags in light of all the unspent ammo at the scene being hollow points and what was purchased being hollow points.  So the notion Fletcher noted such somewhere and police, defense lawyers etc never addressed it is not credible.

I don't know as far as I am aware the document is authentic.  It certainly looks as if its been in a ring binder, you can make out the holes.

How do we know an electronic type writer was not used, they were very much around back then. I left school in the 70's and we had them at school in our typing class.

[scipio_usmc]

I don't know as far as I am aware the document is authentic.  It certainly looks as if its been in a ring binder, you can make out the holes.

How do we know an electronic type writer was not used, they were very much around back then. I left school in the 70's and we had them at school in our typing class.

It not only is a different font, it has no pagination. The documents provided by the prosecution all have stamps. It is a summary that was being made by someone on the defense side.  If Fletcher had actually written it then there would have been a lot of questions raised. 



 

[mike tesko]

Here are the docs.

Fletcher does not describe any of the bullets in his hand written notes as having been Eley .22LR subsonic hollow point bullets or part bullets, that tag has been made up later to try and convince everyone that this was a one gun crime, committed by someone who used the same type of ammunition, when of course, they did not...

[guest2181]

I am basing it on this...

Produced by Mike or the Campaign team I'm afraid Patti. It's not an official document.

The bullet descriptions given as being high velocity solid rounds is clearly untrue.