13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...

[scipio_usmc]

Scip I am surprised that you may think Sheila was seated. Any idea of where she might have been seated?

I don't think she was in a sitting position, if she were blood would have flowed downwards onto the front of her nightdress and there is no blood flowing downwards.

Herbert M....says she could not have been standing up or seated...

The most logical assumption is she was against the night table though it is possible she was against the bed, closet door or something else and her body was spun somewhat not merely dragged flat.

Blood did flow down her dress. It flowed down her shoulder and side breast area.  This would not have occurred had she been lying flat.  Had she been flat then the blood would have simply gone down the side of her neck. It did go down the side of her neck eventually but only after she was moved flat.  She sat propped against something long enough for the blood do flow down her shoulder and side breast area before she was moved.

This was brought up on the appeal the prosecution didn't bother to raise it at trial. Whether it was because they felt the other evidence was sufficient or they simply never found an expert who noted the significance is unknown.  The court found the evidence persuasive but rejected it because it wasn't new evidence.  They didn't use new science to come up with the analysis they simply either didn't bother to use it at trial or didn't learn of it in time to use at trial because of a lack of effort.  That means the Court refused to consider it. Since the defense failed to refute the evidence used at trial it made no difference that the court refused to consider it. If the conviction were vacated and a new trial help such could be used though. A new trial is not limited to evidence used prior it is a new trial from scratch.

My own guess was it was prosecutorial ineptitude that they missed it. Vanezis said in his writings that she was shot seated then fell flat after.  So he was suggesting she was sitting up not propped against something, managed not to fall after the first shot somehow, bled down her shoulder and gown then seconds later fired the second shot and upon dying fell flat.

Fletcher rejected such he said she would have fallen flat immediately after any shot. So the prosecution for sure was on notice of a problem.  They simply failed to piece the issue together and for that matter the experts never fully pieced it together for them but prosecutors are supposed to see such problems and have the experts further assess anything overlooked.  So in my estimation the Court was right the prosecution missed their chance to make the point and should not be permitted to do so on appeal.

That is why the defense currently has no need to address the point and why you see little made of it anywhere.  Only if the conviction were vacated and a new trial granted would the defense need to worry about addressing such.


 

[mike tesko]

Sheila was laid on the bed with a solitary dried blood stained wound on her throat, which ran vertically down her neck when stood upright. She could not have been sat upright anywhere upstairs at the time she received the first shot. Expert evidence exists which strongly suggests that the second shot inflicted underneath her chin was cause between an hour and an hour and a half before the photograph which shows partially coagulated blood running, leaking and still running from that particular wound - as stated by Giovani De Stefano in the documentary, "KILLING MUM AND DAD" - Jeremy Bamber...

[mike tesko]

Sheila was laid on the bed with a solitary dried blood stained wound on her throat, which ran vertically down her neck when stood upright. She could not have been sat upright anywhere upstairs at the time she received the first shot. Expert evidence exists which strongly suggests that the second shot inflicted underneath her chin was cause between an hour and an hour and a half before the photograph which shows partially coagulated blood running, leaking and still running from that particular wound - as stated by Giovani De Stefano in the documentary, "KILLING MUM AND DAD" - Jeremy Bamber...

In the photo' of Sheila on the bed, she is laid with her head on the left hand side pillow (when stood at the foot of the bed viewing the pillows from that position). One wound on her throat, no blood running from the sides of her mouth, no triangular bloodstain on the upper front right hand side of her nightdress, withy bloodstaining visible on the sole of her foot...

[mike tesko]

The jury were deceived by the police / prosecutions claim that Sheila's feet were spotlessly clean...

[Patti]

The most logical assumption is she was against the night table though it is possible she was against the bed, closet door or something else and her body was spun somewhat not merely dragged flat.

Blood did flow down her dress. It flowed down her shoulder and side breast area.  This would not have occurred had she been lying flat.  Had she been flat then the blood would have simply gone down the side of her neck. It did go down the side of her neck eventually but only after she was moved flat.  She sat propped against something long enough for the blood do flow down her shoulder and side breast area before she was moved.

This was brought up on the appeal the prosecution didn't bother to raise it at trial. Whether it was because they felt the other evidence was sufficient or they simply never found an expert who noted the significance is unknown.  The court found the evidence persuasive but rejected it because it wasn't new evidence.  They didn't use new science to come up with the analysis they simply either didn't bother to use it at trial or didn't learn of it in time to use at trial because of a lack of effort.  That means the Court refused to consider it. Since the defense failed to refute the evidence used at trial it made no difference that the court refused to consider it. If the conviction were vacated and a new trial help such could be used though. A new trial is not limited to evidence used prior it is a new trial from scratch.

My own guess was it was prosecutorial ineptitude that they missed it. Vanezis said in his writings that she was shot seated then fell flat after.  So he was suggesting she was sitting up not propped against something, managed not to fall after the first shot somehow, bled down her shoulder and gown then seconds later fired the second shot and upon dying fell flat.

Fletcher rejected such he said she would have fallen flat immediately after any shot. So the prosecution for sure was on notice of a problem.  They simply failed to piece the issue together and for that matter the experts never fully pieced it together for them but prosecutors are supposed to see such problems and have the experts further assess anything overlooked.  So in my estimation the Court was right the prosecution missed their chance to make the point and should not be permitted to do so on appeal.

That is why the defense currently has no need to address the point and why you see little made of it anywhere.  Only if the conviction were vacated and a new trial granted would the defense need to worry about addressing such.

I agree that blood flowed slightly downwards to her right hand side, but do you agree she could not have been in  a vertical position when this occured and that she was on her right hand side and that it is possible that the 2nd shot tracked from her right hand side and was not a vertical shot.

Could the latter have thrown her backwards onto her back, thus supported by blood running vertically from each corner of her mouth, plus the jerk of this made blood run into her eye.

[scipio_usmc]

Sheila was laid on the bed with a solitary dried blood stained wound on her throat, which ran vertically down her neck when stood upright. She could not have been sat upright anywhere upstairs at the time she received the first shot. Expert evidence exists which strongly suggests that the second shot inflicted underneath her chin was cause between an hour and an hour and a half before the photograph which shows partially coagulated blood running, leaking and still running from that particular wound - as stated by Giovani De Stefano in the documentary, "KILLING MUM AND DAD" - Jeremy Bamber...

The expert evidence in the case says the second shot came within seconds of the first.  She would have bled out if the second wound had not been delivered.  Your claim she would have survived hours is absurd.

She never stood upright the blood on her gown indicates she was seated at first then moved flat. 

Your claim she was in bed is also nonsense.

You are under the delusion that just making things up is helpful.  It isn't it is worthless such efforts go now where in Court and rarely even make it to court.  They don't even make it to sway the CCRC. 

[mike tesko]

Sheila was on the bed with one bullet wound in her neck. I have personally seen the photographs depicting this. She is on the bed, her head resting on the left hand pillow, no blood coming out of her mouth, no blood running back into her left eye socket, no blood running horizontally across the right side of her neck, just a wee vertical blood run running as it had vertically from the first wound. There was no rifle on her body at that time. It was still resting against the bedroom window by that stage, iso somebody had to bring it away from the window and place it upon her body in time for the photographs which show two bullet wounds on her neck could be photographed there. You see, PC Bird did not start taking photographs of Sheila's body on the bedroom floor until around 11.00am, not as has previously been stated. The truth of the matter is that PC Bird started taking photographs elsewhere in the farmhouse at 10 am, for example, downstairs in the kitchen. According to DI RON Cook, he did not move Sheila Caffells right hand from the gun so that PC Bird could photograph the bloodied fingermarks on the front lower part if Sheila's nightdress until 11.10am. This is very interesting because at this time the rifle was photographed on her body, showing the position of her right hand and arm in two different positions upon and around the gun. The rifle was therefore on the body at that precise time (11.10am), yet...

The photograph taken from the middle landing of the main stairs showing the rifle leaning against the main bedroom window, was taken by PC Bird at 10.25 am, some 45 minutes prior to the same rifle being photographed on her body by 11.10am...

Bamber has now got photographic proof in the sequence and timing that each photograph was taken at the scene using the expert opinion of a photograph expert, proving that the rifle at the bedroom window was never photographed upon her body at any time prior to 11.10am, that morning, so this must surely be a significant breakthrough...

The rifle which fired the fatal shot (bullet PV/19) remained at the bedroom window until it was utilized in a police training exercise, and whilst offering the weapon against her body with the barrel of the rifle beneath the chin, and the fingers of her right hand upon the trigger mechanism, which activated the firing mechanism of the rifle. The rifle was placed back at the window where it remained until just before 11.10am, when police moved it back onto her body enabling PC Bird to photograph the rifle on Sheila's body. The timing when these photographs were taken exposes what the police had got up to whilst stage managing the bedroom scene to try and make out a false case that Sheila had taken her own life -yet, she hadn't and didn't...

[mike tesko]

DS Jones told relatives he had seen Sheila's body on the bed and that she had been shot once under the chin. Dr Craig told how he saw Sheila's body on the far side of the bed with a solitary bullet wound in her neck. pi Bob Miller also stated that he saw Sheila's body on the far side of the bed, with a single shot to the neck. Police photographed Sheila's body on the bed showing only one bullet wound in her throat, with no rifle on her body. The newspapers of the day reported in several different publications that Sheila's body was found on the bed. At the opening of the inquest held in the 14th August 1985, PI Miller reinforced what he had said in his statement, that police were satisfied that Sheila had shot and killed the other four victims, and that she had then gone on to take her own life by was of a single shot underneath the chin...

When Julie Mugford returned from Chelmsford hospital mortuary after identifying Sheila's body, she told everybody that Sheila had been shot once under the chin...

The rifle that fired the fatal shot beneath Sheila's chin, was photographed to be leaning against the bedroom window at 10.25am, some 45 minutes prior to the first photograph taken (11.10am) showing the same rifle on her body, so how could Jeremy have killed Sheila with use of the anshuzt rifle?

[mike tesko]

The facts speak for themselves, Jeremy Bamber did not kill any one of the five victims at all...

[scipio_usmc]

DS Jones told relatives he had seen Sheila's body on the bed and that she had been shot once under the chin. Dr Craig told how he saw Sheila's body on the far side of the bed with a solitary bullet wound in her neck. pi Bob Miller also stated that he saw Sheila's body on the far side of the bed, with a single shot to the neck. Police photographed Sheila's body on the bed showing only one bullet wound in her throat, with no rifle on her body. The newspapers of the day reported in several different publications that Sheila's body was found on the bed. At the opening of the inquest held in the 14th August 1985, PI Miller reinforced what he had said in his statement, that police were satisfied that Sheila had shot and killed the other four victims, and that she had then gone on to take her own life by was of a single shot underneath the chin...

When Julie Mugford returned from Chelmsford hospital mortuary after identifying Sheila's body, she told everybody that Sheila had been shot once under the chin...

The rifle that fired the fatal shot beneath Sheila's chin, was photographed to be leaning against the bedroom window at 10.25am, some 45 minutes prior to the first photograph taken (11.10am) showing the same rifle on her body, so how could Jeremy have killed Sheila with use of the anshuzt rifle?

DS Jones didn't tell the family Sheila was on the bed.  I don't know why you keep bothering with all your faitytales...

[lookout]

 Someone told AE that was the case-----------------but she " forgot " who'd told her.
Remembered everything else bar that,and the silencer,of course.

[Patti]

Someone told AE that was the case-----------------but she " forgot " who'd told her.
Remembered everything else bar that,and the silencer,of course.

It was PC Clark Lookout not sure if it has an e on the end....

[lookout]

It was PC Clark Lookout not sure if it has an e on the end....

Oh I see,with or without an " e ".

[Patti]

Oh I see,with or without an " e ".

Yeah not an N hahahahah 

[scipio_usmc]

SOC officer Malcolm Fletcher.

I think the weight of the bullets were about 2.7 ? Someone found a chart from the internet, I thought we had the size and weight in the archives....I am sure it was less than 40.

The chart looks to be of modern computer creation not the typing fonts of the documents Fletcher created. Moreover, it lacks the markings typical to genuinse case documents.  They have numbers stamped on them reflecting exhibit numbers or pagination from copying. When you send documents to the other side as part of a document production you have your own pagination apart from that original to the document.

I think it was created by someone during the course of the defense effort, compiled by supporters from various documents.