Author Topic: 13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...  (Read 51485 times)

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Offline Alias

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This is the wound Scip and Mike are on about? And below that is diagram of that wound that say exit on it. That is not 4 inches up from the elbow that is just below the elbow isn't it?  Or am I seeing things.

I think "the inside of the elbow" (don´t know what that part is called) is what you see at the bottom of the picture on the left side. Elbow itself is not visible, but at the right side bottom.

Offline Patti

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If Ralph only had 7 shots (instead of 8), it creates a logistical problem, because there are 25 cartridge cases...

Well it could mean we have a missed shot? But I think we are right in what we have said and that fig.8 is an exit wound, but where is the bullet?  I have said this before and that Vanezes doesn't mention any entry wounds to the chest....I#m a bit confused about this... :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 08:05:PM by Patti »

Offline mike tesko

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If Ralph only had 7 shots (instead of 8), it creates a logistical problem, because there are 25 cartridge cases...

So, which of the 25 cartridge cases recovered from the scene, is / was the red herring?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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Sorry Scip the exit wound on figure 8 is correct it matches with the whole bullets that were found in the main bedroom.  All match up.  I think the problem is that there was some confusion between the shoulder shot and the arm shot.....For if you are saying that the arm shot was a graze then Nevill only had 7 shots...and we know he had 8.... :-\

How does one of the wounds being a graze wound result in only 7 bullet wounds?  A graze wound is a bullet wound it simply means the bullet didn't enter the body.

Read the autopsy report paragraph related to wound 8.  It describes it as a graze wound there was no exit wound. When a bullet enters the body it is an entrance wound.  That means it goes inside the skin.  Then a bullet that goes inside the body exits the body it does so through an exit wound.  A graze wound is a wound where a bullet scrapes against the body. it leaves a channel mark on the exterior of the body. The word exit on the diagram is merely to show where the bullet was at the point that it stopped grazing the arm.  It was not an actual exit wound which is why you don't see exit wound used in the autopsy.     

The bullet fragment fractured, a small part of it entered Nevill's side the remainder grazed his chest and ended up in the bedroom.  The fact it was in the bedroom establishes this is the room where the graze wound was delivered.  Nevill was definitely shot in the bedroom.

Apart from not understanding the difference between a graze wound and wound where a bullet actually enters then exits the body, you are ignoring the body location of wound 8.

Mike posted a photo of a wound to Nevill's right forearm. He claimed the wound was a bullet exit wound. Yet the autopsy report and diagram of Nevill's bullet wounds do not list any bullet wound to his right forearm. 

The wound you erroneously thought was an exit wound (8 ) was a wound above Nevill's left elbow. Even if it had been an exit wound that still would not have helped Mike's claims at all since it is not on the right side at all and not to any forearm at all it was to the left upper arm above the elbow.

The wound to Nevill's right forearm which Mike showed a photo of was an abrasion made by the corner of the butt of the rifle.   

I understand that people will have a problem with some technical issues like understanding what a graze wound is but the location of the wounds should not be confusing to anyone.  The diagrams are straight forward and so is the section of the autopsy with regard to location of wounds.

You are trying to defend Mike for naught.

8 bullets caused 8 gunshot wounds to Nevill.  7 of those bullets entered Nevill's body and remained there none of them exited.  1 of those bullets grazed Nevill's upper arm and then a small portion of the fragment entered his side while the largest part of the fragment landed in the bedroom and thus was recovered from the bedroom by the crime scene officers.

This is easy to understand if one actually makes an effort to do so.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 08:06:PM by scipio_usmc »
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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Well it could mean we have a missed shot? But I think we are right in what we have said and that fig.8 is an exit wound, but where is the bullet?  I have said this before and that Vanezes does mention any entry wounds to the chest....I#m a bit confused about this... :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Would Jeremy the marksman have missed his target at such close quarters? I presume we would be talking about a shot aimed at Ralph that missed, but where was Ralph when the shot that missed him was fired at him? Was he in the main bedroom? Was he on the top landing? Was he in the main kitchen? This makes the case very interesting from my perspective, since if the missed shot at Ralph occurred in the main bedroom, and he got shot non fatally four times whilst in the bedroom, then we have a bullet case missing from the vicinity of the main bedroom, established because June was shot and wounded 7 times, Ralph shot at 5 times, and Sheila shot twice, totalling14 shots...

If we say in those / these circumstances, 13 cartridge cases were recovered from the main bedroom, instead of 12, it still leaves a short fall of one bullet case, if Sheila was shot twice in the main bedroom, instead of just once (thus supporting my contention that she was only shot once in the main bedroom)...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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Well it could mean we have a missed shot? But I think we are right in what we have said and that fig.8 is an exit wound, but where is the bullet?  I have said this before and that Vanezes doesn't mention any entry wounds to the chest....I#m a bit confused about this... :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

One of the bullets grazed the back  of Nevill's left arm. It created a channel on the outside of the back of his arm because it brushed against it at high speed. If the bullet were more to the left it would have entered his arm.  If the bullet were more to the right it would have missed his arm entirely.  It was in a position which resulted in it brushing against his arm so grazing him.  A very small portion of the bullet entered his side.  Most of the bullet though ended up landing in the room. That bullet is DRH/5

The largest fragments from the 4 bullet wounds suffered by Nevill in the bedroom:
PV/2  (Shoulder)
DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound) 
PV/10 (lip)         
PV/11 (jaw)

The fragments with the PV prefix were all removed from Nevill's body at autopsy.  DRH/5 was recovered in the master bedroom by the crime scene investigators.  Since this fragment never entered his body but rather just grazed him it wound up in the bedroom. 

I don't understand why people are having so much difficulty with this.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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Mike posted a photo of a wound to Nevill's right forearm. He claimed the wound was a bullet exit wound. Yet the autopsy report and diagram of Nevill's bullet wounds do not list any bullet wound to his right forearm. 

The wound you erroneously thought was an exit wound (8 ) was a wound above Nevill's left elbow. Even if it had been an exit wound that still would not have helped Mike's claims at all since it is not on the right side at all and not to any forearm at all it was to the left upper arm above the elbow.

The wound to Nevill's right forearm which Mike showed a photo of was an abrasion made by the corner of the butt of the rifle.   

I understand that people will have a problem with some technical issues like understanding what a graze wound is but the location of the wounds should not be confusing to anyone.  The diagrams are straight forward and so is the section of the autopsy with regard to location of wounds.

You are trying to defend Mike for naught.

8 bullets caused 8 gunshot wounds to Nevill.  7 of those bullets entered Nevill's body and remained there none of them exited.  1 of those bullets grazed Nevill's upper arm and then a small portion of the fragment entered his side while the largest part of the fragment landed in the bedroom and thus was recovered from the bedroom by the crime scene officers.

This is easy to understand if one actually makes an effort to do so.

I never said the bullet wound in the arm was located on Ralphs right arm, it was situated in his left arm, not his right arm:-

Look at the diagram, stop misinterpreting what I am saying to enable yourself to develop inaccurate counter arguments...
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 08:18:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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Skippy is clearly wrong. Still he is so arrogant that he is name-calling and talking down to people who dare to contradict him. This is intolerable.

I'm not wrong in the least.  I'm the only one posting in this thread who is accurate.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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I'm not wrong in the least.  I'm the only one posting in this thread who is accurate.

Get the facts right then, bullet exit wound was in left arm, not his right arm...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Patti

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I'm not wrong in the least.  I'm the only one posting in this thread who is accurate.

But if you are accurate then Nevill only received 7 shots and we have a bullet that missed its target.  :-\

Offline scipio_usmc

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Alias read the report...It does indicate that the bullet from the shoulder somehow tracked down the arm, then exited and that fragments from that bullet ended up in the chest cavity....if this was so then Nevill only had 7 shots which is what I argued with Hartley a long time ago....

I'll have a look at what I did....I'll be back...lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D

It doesn't say the bullet from the shoulder tracked down the arm and exited.  The autopsy report says the bullet from the shoulder wound fractured his arm and the bullet was recovered from the fracture.  That was classified wound 7 in the autopsy and on the diagram.  Wound 8 is the graze wound.  This wound just brushed against his skin it didn't enter his arm.  The largest fragment form it was DRH/5 and was recovered in the bedroom instead of in his body precisely because it simply brushed against his body it didn't enter.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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But if you are accurate then Nevill only received 7 shots and we have a bullet that missed its target.  :-\

Post where I suggested he only had 7 gun shot wounds.  I have been continuously posting the 8 wounds he suffered and even matched up the bullets to the wounds.  You are jumping to conclusions instead of reading what I have written.  I just matched up the 4 bullets again to the 4 wounds suffered in the bedroom and described the location of each wound.  I don't know how I could be more clear for you.



Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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It doesn't say the bullet from the shoulder tracked down the arm and exited.  The autopsy report says the bullet from the shoulder wound fractured his arm and the bullet was recovered from the fracture.  That was classified wound 7 in the autopsy and on the diagram.  Wound 8 is the graze wound.  This wound just brushed against his skin it didn't enter his arm.  The largest fragment form it was DRH/5 and was recovered in the bedroom instead of in his body precisely because it simply brushed against his body it didn't enter.

Hang on a minute - the original autopsy report went missing, so once again you are not being entirely accurate...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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I never said the bullet wound in the arm was located on Ralphs right arm, it was situated in his left arm, not his right arm:-

Look at the diagram, stop misinterpreting what I am saying to enable yourself to develop inaccurate counter arguments...

I'm not misrepresenting- you are!

You posted a photo of a wound on Nevill's right forearm.  You told us that this was a bullet exit wound.  The diagram shows no exit wound to either of Nevill's forearms nor does the autopsy report mention any exit wounds to either of his forearms.  The wound in the photo you posted was not a bullet exit wound, it was a gouge to Nevill's right forearm that was made by the butt of the rifle as Nevill tried to block the blows.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Alias

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Exit noted on June´s diagram as well.
So are they grazings - or exit wounds as it says on her (and Nevill´s) diagram.
Why call a grazing wound "exit"?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 08:32:PM by Alias »