Author Topic: Who Pays?  (Read 11230 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2015, 12:05:AM »

Who was it who said that surgeons,lawyers,judges,etc etc,were psychopaths because they are clever people ?

I never heard that but Shakespeare's, "the first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" is classic. 
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Offline David1819

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #136 on: March 14, 2015, 12:08:AM »
I never heard that but Shakespeare's, "the first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" is classic.

It was a study that sais psychopaths where more likely to become Surgeons, Lawyers and Judges ect
It does not say they where all  psychopaths

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #137 on: March 14, 2015, 12:34:AM »
I think some of this is quite true:


"Psychopaths make their way by conning people into doing things for them; obtaining money for them, prestige, power, or even standing up for them when others try to expose them. But that is their claim to fame. That's what they do. And they do it very well. What's more, the job is very easy because most people are gullible with an unshakable belief in the inherent goodness of man.

Manipulation is the key to the psychopath's conquests. Initially, the psychopath will feign false emotions to create empathy, and many of them study the tricks that can be employed by the empathy technique. Psychopaths are often able to incite pity from people because they seem like "lost souls" as Guggenbuhl-Craig writes. So the pity factor is one reason why victims often fall for these "poor" people.

Psychologist Robert Hare cites a famous case where a psychopath was "Man of the Year" and president of the Chamber of Commerce in his small town. (Remember that John Wayne Gacy was running for Jaycee President at the very time of his first murder conviction!) The man in question had claimed to have a Ph.D. from Berkeley. He ran for a position on the school board which he then planned to parlay into a position on the county commission which paid more.

At some point, a local reporter suddenly had the idea to check up on the guy - to see if his credentials were real. What the reporter found out was that the only thing that was true about this up and coming politician's "faked bio" was the place and date of birth. Everything else was fictitious. Not only was the man a complete impostor, he had a long history of antisocial behavior, fraud, impersonation, and imprisonment. His only contact with a university was a series of extension courses by mail that he took while in Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary. What is even more amazing is the fact that before he was a con-man, he was a "con-boy." For two decades he had dodged his way across America one step ahead of those he had hoodwinked. Along the way he had married three women and had four children, and he didn't even know what had happened to them. And now, he was on a roll! But darn that pesky reporter!

When he was exposed, he was completely unconcerned. "These trusting people will stand behind me. A good liar is a good judge of people," he said. Amazingly, he was right. Far from being outraged at the fact that they had all been completely deceived and lied to from top to bottom, the local community he had conned so completely to accrue benefits and honors to himself that he had not earned, rushed to his support!

What kind of psychological weaknesses drive people to prefer lies over truth?

This may have something to do with what is called Cognitive Dissonance. Leon Festinger developed the theory of Cognitive Dissonance in the 50's when he apparently stumbled onto a UFO cult in the Midwest. They were prophesying a coming world cataclysm and "alien rapture." When no one was raptured and no cataclysm he studied the believers response, and detailed it in his book "When Prophecy Fails." Festinger observed:

A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point.

We have all experienced the futility of trying to change a strong conviction, especially if the convinced person has some investment in his belief. We are familiar with the variety of ingenious defenses with which people protect their convictions, managing to keep them unscathed through the most devastating attacks.

But man's resourcefulness goes beyond simply protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view.

It seems that part of the problem has to do with ego and the need to be "right." People with a high "need to be right" or "perfect" seem to be unable to acknowledge that they have been conned. "There is no crime in the cynical American calendar more humiliating than to be a sucker." People will go along with and support a psychopath, in the face of evidence that they have and ARE being conned, because their own ego structure depends on being right, and to admit an error of judgment would destroy their carefully constructed image of themselves.

Even more amazing is the fact that when psychopaths do get exposed by someone who is not afraid to admit that they have been conned, the psychopath is a master at painting their victims as the "real culprits."

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #138 on: March 14, 2015, 03:02:AM »




Who was it who said that surgeons,lawyers,judges,etc etc,were psychopaths because they are clever people ?

Errrm, don't think that was me!!
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Caroline

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #139 on: March 14, 2015, 03:05:AM »
Nothing clever in knowing you'll be caught. ;D

Criminals don't commit crimes knowing they will be caught (they THINK they have crossed the t's and dotted the i's) - you always forget that you are looking at things with the benefit of hindsight!
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Offline lookout

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #140 on: March 14, 2015, 11:19:AM »
Criminals don't commit crimes knowing they will be caught (they THINK they have crossed the t's and dotted the i's) - you always forget that you are looking at things with the benefit of hindsight!





So Jeremy didn't think he'd be caught with the TONS of evidence he'd left behind ? ::)

Offline Jane

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #141 on: March 14, 2015, 11:42:AM »




So Jeremy didn't think he'd be caught with the TONS of evidence he'd left behind ? ::)


He would have believed his intellect superior to that of the average Essex plod. Naturally he didn't believe he'd be caught.

Offline lookout

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #142 on: March 14, 2015, 11:47:AM »

He would have believed his intellect superior to that of the average Essex plod. Naturally he didn't believe he'd be caught.






You mean with ALL the evidence which was left behind,that he didn't believe he'd be caught  ? You must be joking.

Offline Jane

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #143 on: March 14, 2015, 11:49:AM »





You mean with ALL the evidence which was left behind,that he didn't believe he'd be caught  ? You must be joking.


So, too, are you, if you're implying that ANYONE commits and leaves a crime scene KNOWING they've left evidence behind. It's hindsight which produces evidence.

Online ngb1066

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #144 on: March 14, 2015, 12:01:PM »
What about the prosecution, how do they pay for their experts, do they get a budget, or is it just a bottomless pit?
There must obviously be some system in place to avoid abuse.

The prosecution can instruct whatever experts they wish,  In practice they are advised by prosecution counsel and they invariably take their advice.


Offline lookout

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #145 on: March 14, 2015, 12:12:PM »





You mean with ALL the evidence which was left behind,that he didn't believe he'd be caught  ? You must be joking.






Muddy bike,bloody clothes,black eyes, burns,cuts and grazes,open windows,fingerprints everywhere,big muddy footprints,a file,silencer,buckled rifle,high on drugs,blood in his car,stolen jewellery hanging out of his pockets,safe opened,paintings in his car boot ready to flog,along with all the silver. Sooo greedy. ::) A thief,liar,fraud,psychopath,sociopath,murderer------------and his girlfriend didn't know as she was the innocent bystander who'd never done wrong.
Then grease round his mouth from eating a hearty breakfast of bacon,egg,sausage,mushrooms,tomatoes ( equates to a hearty breakfast in my books ),as he was interviewed by the police.

This is how I've been reading it for the past 3 years.

Offline Alias

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #146 on: March 14, 2015, 02:56:PM »
I obviously have a somewhat unique perspective,  but I won't argue with your point.

Can you elaborate on that, I am quite curious? "Horrible person" can be said about a lot of people and is a very general term.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #147 on: March 14, 2015, 03:27:PM »
Can you elaborate on that, I am quite curious? "Horrible person" can be said about a lot of people and is a very general term.

I imagine Hartley means that he has met people who knew Jeremy and has heard stories we aren't party to.
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Offline Alias

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #148 on: March 14, 2015, 04:51:PM »
I imagine Hartley means that he has met people who knew Jeremy and has heard stories we aren't party to.

I know. Would be interesting to hear what those people have said.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Who Pays?
« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2015, 05:22:PM »
I imagine Hartley means that he has met people who knew Jeremy and has heard stories we aren't party to.

Harters is smart in not falling into the trap of recounting negative tales about Jeremy.  Far too many Jeremy supporters want to make this a battle over whether he was a good guy unlikely to kill or a bad guy who would be likely to kill.

Basing a trial on prior bad acts and an in depth look at character is intentionally not permitted.  The trial is supposed to be about the evidence itself that proves the case not one's character. 

Harters has kept his analysis and opinions on the facts where they belong.

Even if he posts negative tales just to provide information not for use in debating there will be people on both sides of the aisles trying to find a way to use such accounts to their advantage and they will craft a debate around other such things instead of the evidence that matters.

 

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry