Russia - worrying?

[Hardy Boy]

Just like me and Gringo have been saying...................Donald Trump says he believes Russia "have the cards" in any peace talks to end the war in Ukraine because they have "taken a lot of territory".

Moscow back at the table - and appearing to call the shots..............This was not a defeated Russia, forced to the negotiating table. It was more like the US inviting the aggressor to set out its terms.

[Steve_uk]

   I'm sure and David will know less.
     There is a difference between Actual Intelligence and Artificial Ignorance which David is unable to discern.

Far be from me to defend someone who has put me on ignore, but the thrust of David's argument is correct. It's easy sitting in an office pulling a few levers to assure the destruction of hundreds of thousands of lives. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/putin-calls-up-indigenous-people-2-000-miles-from-war-to-die-in-their-thousands/ss-AA1zqeqK?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=a55c742bf45046a2cb4118153416af28&ei=9#image=1

[gringo]

Gringo iv'e read a lot of your past posts, i sometimes think your inside the Kremlin itself,  youv'e been spot on my friend,  Ukraine would have been defeated soon enough anyway, they were on the back foot, i read an article that said the Ukraine army was like the German Army in January 1945.” being pushed back on all fronts and it was only a matter of time?

Trump is no fool, he knows there was no chance and he didn't want the Humiliation on his watch, that's why he's rushed into these talks, he's now talking about a change of leadership in Ukraine, i personally think Zelensky is a busted flush and will soon be replaced,   to me it was impossible to defeat Russia,  .......... History knows of no example where taking on Russia in an attritional contest has proved successful. Let’s be clear: this means there is a real possibility of defeat – there is no sugar-coating this........by Frank Ledwidge

I really hope everyone has learned their lesson from this gringo, and at the very least we get a lasting peace where everyone works together, time will tell i suppose.

    The chihuahuas are still barking in the background (UK, France, Baltic countries and others) but are powerless and sidelined anyway. A lasting peace will come only when the now poorer populations of those countries who have impoverished themselves in their futile attempt to defeat and break up Russia, eject their own criminal governments. The splintering of the EU and of NATO is coming. The demise of NATO is necessary for a lasting and sustainable peace. The existence of NATO is the only reason that we are in perpetual war, it's demise is necessary for peace, in my view HB.
     NATO has never been a "defensive alliance" and has always been the enforcement arm of "Global Capitalism". The populations of NATO alliance countries have just had this fact spelled out to them over the last few years and are now paying the price. The "NATO alliance" will now pay the price as those same populations reject the warmongers. NATO is long past its "best by" date and will soon be consigned to the dustbin of history.

[gringo]

Just like me and Gringo have been saying...................Donald Trump says he believes Russia "have the cards" in any peace talks to end the war in Ukraine because they have "taken a lot of territory".

Moscow back at the table - and appearing to call the shots..............This was not a defeated Russia, forced to the negotiating table. It was more like the US inviting the aggressor to set out its terms.

    This is exactly the position, HB. It is mind boggling that Steve and David are still attempting to sugar coat this. The continuing denial of what everyone can see is off the scale.

[Hardy Boy]

    This is exactly the position, HB. It is mind boggling that Steve and David are still attempting to sugar coat this. The continuing denial of what everyone can see is off the scale.

You did warn them gringo, even i could see the outcome  it was only a matter of time, this should have been sorted years back and the Russian problems listened to,  and now youv'e got Little Brittain [Starmer] puffing his chest out sending troops to secure the Border  they can't even secure their own Border never mind Ukraine and Russia.

It makes me Laugh how they bang on about the Special relationship between the USA and UK, this relationship is that special they won't even sign a trade pact with us, Biden shelved plans before the 2024 election, the USA are all themselves Gringo and it's time europe woke up, like you say, NATO has been badly damaged by this,  Russia has gained the Upper hand, i don't buy into the numbers being portrayed by the media on troop loses, Russia was advancing fast, so to me the other side must be taking the hits to retreat?

[Hardy Boy]

    The chihuahuas are still barking in the background (UK, France, Baltic countries and others) but are powerless and sidelined anyway. A lasting peace will come only when the now poorer populations of those countries who have impoverished themselves in their futile attempt to defeat and break up Russia, eject their own criminal governments. The splintering of the EU and of NATO is coming. The demise of NATO is necessary for a lasting and sustainable peace. The existence of NATO is the only reason that we are in perpetual war, it's demise is necessary for peace, in my view HB.
     NATO has never been a "defensive alliance" and has always been the enforcement arm of "Global Capitalism". The populations of NATO alliance countries have just had this fact spelled out to them over the last few years and are now paying the price. The "NATO alliance" will now pay the price as those same populations reject the warmongers. NATO is long past its "best by" date and will soon be consigned to the dustbin of history.

Little Brittain, and France who can't defend the borders at home, never mind Ukraine.  Wev'e put our faith in the Yanks too much Gringo, all we are to the Yanks is  little Puppets,  Trump is after his money back now, he will take Mineral rights off Ukraine and Fk anyone else.

[Steve_uk]

Remind me again the justification for invading Crimea?

Maybe one should take a step back for a moment..https://youtu.be/rKBM2kS6B8o

[Hardy Boy]

Remind me again the justification for invading Crimea?

Maybe one should take a step back for a moment..https://youtu.be/rKBM2kS6B8o

My point has been mainly about the outcome Steve, i could see what was going to Happen and Gringo told you years before me, i have some sypathy for Russia [even though i don't like Putin] Nato has been advancing ever closer to his borders and the next one was Ukraine.  USA, France, Britain wouldn't like the same happening to them Steve, they pushed Putin too far and left him no choice.  Gringo always puts up a fair and balanced argument on the rights and wrongs of the war Steve and talks sense, his knowledge of the region far outways mine.

[Steve_uk]

My point has been mainly about the outcome Steve, i could see what was going to Happen and Gringo told you years before me, i have some sypathy for Russia [even though i don't like Putin] Nato has been advancing ever closer to his borders and the next one was Ukraine.  USA, France, Britain wouldn't like the same happening to them Steve, they pushed Putin too far and left him no choice.  Gringo always puts up a fair and balanced argument on the rights and wrongs of the war Steve and talks sense, his knowledge of the region far outways mine.

But Putin has no democratic legitimacy. It's a terror state harking back to the Stalinist Soviet Union. Nuclear weapons have made the need for buffer states less requisite than the situation which pertained in the 1930s. The Russian fleet in Crimea I'm assuming could be destroyed in minutes with drones.

It makes me wonder what the real reason was for the invasion of Ukraine and the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives.

[Hardy Boy]

But Putin has no democratic legitimacy. It's a terror state harking back to the Stalinist Soviet Union. Nuclear weapons have made the need for buffer states less requisite than the situation which pertained in the 1930s. The Russian fleet in Crimea I'm assuming could be destroyed in minutes with drones.

It makes me wonder what the real reason was for the invasion of Ukraine and the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives.

At the end of the day Steve...................... Jaw, jaw is better than war, war as the saying goes, i think the West have had plenty of oportunities to enter into dialouge with Russia, it could have saved a lot of bloodshed on both sides. 

[gringo]

Remind me again the justification for invading Crimea?

Maybe one should take a step back for a moment..https://youtu.be/rKBM2kS6B8o

    This is one of those subjects that you have raised often over the years. Despite it being answered time and again, you ignore this and ask again some time later. This led me to start a thread (July 2023) addressing this very issue, so that in future when you again bring up the subject of Crimea, you can be pointed to the answer. I only started the thread because your one line drive by comments were getting tiresome as was your failure to take anything on board. Thread is linked below. When given the opportunity to lay out your case/arguments you were found wanting and failed to offer anything approaching a coherent argument. So here is your "reminder" justifying what you call an "invasion of Crimea".

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11880.0.html

[Steve_uk]

    This is one of those subjects that you have raised raise often over the years. Despite it being answered time and again, you ignore this and ask again some time later. This led me to start a thread (July 2023) addressing this very issue, so that in future when you again bring up the subject of Crimea, you can be pointed to the answer. I only started the thread because your one line drive by comments were getting tiresome as was your failure to take anything on board. Thread is linked below. When given the opportunity to lay out your case/arguments you were found wanting and failed to offer anything approaching a coherent argument. So here is your "reminder" justifying what you call an "invasion of Crimea".

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11880.0.html

Yes, I do recall. Now: if 7million Palestinian refugees all have a right of return to their homeland, would you grant the 200,000 Tatars deported in 1944 by Stalin the right to settle back in Crimea and be allowed free and fair elections?  Yes or no. https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/voices/under-russian-occupation-crimean-tatars-face-a-campaign-of-erasure

[gringo]

Yes, I do recall. Now: if 7million Palestinian refugees all have a right of return to their homeland, would you grant the 200,000 Tatars deported in 1944 by Stalin the right to settle back in Crimea and be allowed free and fair elections?  Yes or no. https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/voices/under-russian-occupation-crimean-tatars-face-a-campaign-of-erasure

    Then I am sure you recall that this question was dealt with in that thread. As is usual for you, inconvenient facts that don't fit into your narrative are simply ignored. There are no 200,000 Tatars demanding a "right of return" to Crimea are there Steve? There are more that 200,000 Tatars in Crimea who take part in free and fair elections. The historical illiteracy of comparing Palestine and Crimea is also raised in the above thread in response to you. You have no coherent answer to inconvenient facts so again ignore them. You are like a broken record. From the Crimea thread below;

"See what happens when you raise non relevant historical references. Comparing Crimea and the Tatars to Palestine is inaccurate in many ways. The Palestinians were forced from their homes by armed gangs. Thousands were murdered and displaced and many more thousands ended up in Refugee camps where they and their descendants still are. How is this comparable to the relocation, albeit forced, of the Tatars? There were no villages and towns burnt down. No mass slaughter of Tatars by Stalin's soldiers. Even when the Tatars were removed to other republics they weren't a majority in Crimea (Just short of 200,000 were removed). The Tatars didn't rule or govern Crimea. The comparison with Palestine is historically illiterate.
    Steve's reply that the Palestinians "left of their own accord" is straight up untrue. That he can talk about Crimeans voting at "the point of a gun"(never happened) and in the next breath refer to the "voluntary evacuation of their own land" by Palestinians is breathtakingly dishonest and a laughably inaccurate historical view.
    It is correct that Palestine is history's greatest injustice. The comparison to Crimea is in no way merited and the situations not comparable."

     The Crimean population, including the Tatars, have made it unambiguously clear ever since the break up of the Soviet Union that they wish to be part of Russia. You simply ignore the inconvenient fact of the will of the Crimeans (including Tatars) themselves.

   

 

     

[Steve_uk]

    Then I am sure you recall that this question was dealt with in that thread. As is usual for you, inconvenient facts that don't fit into your narrative are simply ignored. There are no 200,000 Tatars demanding a "right of return" to Crimea are there Steve? There are more that 200,000 Tatars in Crimea who take part in free and fair elections. The historical illiteracy of comparing Palestine and Crimea is also raised in the above thread in response to you. You have no coherent answer to inconvenient facts so again ignore them. You are like a broken record. From the Crimea thread below;

"See what happens when you raise non relevant historical references. Comparing Crimea and the Tatars to Palestine is inaccurate in many ways. The Palestinians were forced from their homes by armed gangs. Thousands were murdered and displaced and many more thousands ended up in Refugee camps where they and their descendants still are. How is this comparable to the relocation, albeit forced, of the Tatars? There were no villages and towns burnt down. No mass slaughter of Tatars by Stalin's soldiers. Even when the Tatars were removed to other republics they weren't a majority in Crimea (Just short of 200,000 were removed). The Tatars didn't rule or govern Crimea. The comparison with Palestine is historically illiterate.
    Steve's reply that the Palestinians "left of their own accord" is straight up untrue. That he can talk about Crimeans voting at "the point of a gun"(never happened) and in the next breath refer to the "voluntary evacuation of their own land" by Palestinians is breathtakingly dishonest and a laughably inaccurate historical view.
    It is correct that Palestine is history's greatest injustice. The comparison to Crimea is in no way merited and the situations not comparable."

     The Crimean population, including the Tatars, have made it unambiguously clear ever since the break up of the Soviet Union that they wish to be part of Russia. You simply ignore the inconvenient fact of the will of the Crimeans (including Tatars) themselves.

   

 

   

I don't accept your view of history. The so-called Palestinians left on instructions from other Arab states, who then declared war on the new state of Israel. Palestinians have been offered their own state five times since 1936 and rejected it every time.

As far as Crimea is concerned, I suggest you read the following page (and don't start the history lesson at 1783).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars

[gringo]

I don't accept your view of history. The so-called Palestinians left on instructions from other Arab states, who then declared war on the new state of Israel. Palestinians have been offered their own state five times since 1936 and rejected it every time.

As far as Crimea is concerned, I suggest you read the following page (and don't start the history lesson at 1783).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars

    I know the history of Crimea prior to 1783. Are you suggesting we return it to the Ottoman Empire? The Mongol Golden Horde? The Tatars only gained independence under Catherine The Great when Russia defeated the Ottomans.
     Anyway, where are these 200,000 Tatars demanding repatriation? Crimea is Russian. Crimeans overwhelmingly want to remain Russian. Your comparison with Palestine exposes your shortcomings.