Russia - worrying?

[gringo]

I wasn't advocating for any of them. I was saying they were my red lines in negotiating a way back to closer cooperation, whatever form that takes.

    Ok, fair enough. I inferred that you were supporting those policies. What is your position on the three issues that you referred to? Do you regard it as "closer integration" or "loss of sovereignty"? 

[Steve_uk]

    Ok, fair enough. I inferred that you were supporting those policies. What is your position on the three issues that you referred to? Do you regard it as "closer integration" or "loss of sovereignty"?

I think NATO should be the cornerstone of the UK's defence. I think we should retain the £ sterling unless or until there's another referendum on the issue. I could accept QMV in some areas (terrorism, human trafficking, money laundering, humanitarian aid, animal welfare) but not others (tax harmonisation, foreign policy).

[Steve_uk]

No surprise really: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg3mjzyp40go

[David1819]

Day 897 of the 10 day special military operation. The Ukrainian military are 10 miles deep into Kursk and moving forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ysFqDugvh4

[gringo]

Day 897 of the 10 day special military operation. The Ukrainian military are 10 miles deep into Kursk and moving forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ysFqDugvh4

    So how do you imagine this incursion ends, David? How are the front lines going? Who said that the military operation was a 10 day operation and when was this said? Was it perhaps the same sources that claimed that Russia were about to run out of tanks, missiles, soldiers etc. whose pronouncements you also repeated?
     Ukraine is defeated along with their NATO masters. Idiotic military ops such as this are more about PR and propaganda than any strategy. They have done it previously in Belgorod and it will end the same way. It is desperation, David, but you are too blind to see the bigger picture. Empire is on its last legs and it is plain to see.
     Do you honestly believe that this ends in any other than Ukraine/NATO defeat?
     

[gringo]

Day 897 of the 10 day special military operation. The Ukrainian military are 10 miles deep into Kursk and moving forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ysFqDugvh4

    Day 897 of the however long it takes to attrit NATO operation. Lots of fronts opening up against NATO aggression around the world (Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Yemen, Iran). Economic fronts in the shape of BRICS+ and the growing by-passing of the dollar in world trade, recessions and economic woes in western economies. Africa rising and ridding itself of western colonialists. The theft of money and gold from Venezuela and Russia(to name two) under illegal sanctions and abuse of the world financial system were own goals that the the rest of the world took note of. The longer the operation runs, the more the western nations discredit themselves before the world. 
     If you still haven't noticed David, there is a co-ordinated Axis of Resistance against Western Imperialists. The long grind of the Ukraine war has been vital in exposing western aggression to the rest of the world. Russia/Ukraine is only one of the front-lines. NATO and their imperial outposts are on life support (militarily and economically). But there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[gringo]

Day 897 of the 10 day special military operation. The Ukrainian military are 10 miles deep into Kursk and moving forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ysFqDugvh4

 
    From Ukrainian Telegram channels, on the target;

  "As far as I'm concerned, our activity around Kursk is not just some PR stunt, it's an all-out gamble. Zelensky and Co. desperately need the nuclear power plant, and you get the sense they were counting on more rapid progress. The Russian carelessness, negligence and the proverbial "maybe" helped us only so much. Yes, they were taken by surprise, but we have not taken the power plant either. Why do we need it? It's all about negotiations. This could be a good argument for hammering out better conditions. That's why our troops were sent into this misadventure, without much concern about saving their lives. Sounds horrific, but that's war for you."

[Hardy Boy]

    So how do you imagine this incursion ends, David? How are the front lines going? Who said that the military operation was a 10 day operation and when was this said? Was it perhaps the same sources that claimed that Russia were about to run out of tanks, missiles, soldiers etc. whose pronouncements you also repeated?
     Ukraine is defeated along with their NATO masters. Idiotic military ops such as this are more about PR and propaganda than any strategy. They have done it previously in Belgorod and it will end the same way. It is desperation, David, but you are too blind to see the bigger picture. Empire is on its last legs and it is plain to see.
     Do you honestly believe that this ends in any other than Ukraine/NATO defeat?
   

I honestly cannot see Russia accepting anything other than Victory Gringo, you cannot have a super Power lose out to Ukraine,  the only way forward is for Ukraine to concede on the ground taken by Russia.

[gringo]

I honestly cannot see Russia accepting anything other than Victory Gringo, you cannot have a super Power lose out to Ukraine,  the only way forward is for Ukraine to concede on the ground taken by Russia.

    It has been inevitable since day one, HB, that the only possible outcome of provoking Russia enough to fight them in their front yard would be Russian victory. The only valid question being, "What exactly does that victory look like?"
      UK/US/NATO belligerence and continued escalations serving only to make that final victory/settlement even less palatable. Had they accepted the Minsk 1 accords in 2014 then all the death would have been avoided as well the catastrophic displacement of people and economic destruction worldwide. Ukraine would also still include the breakaway oblasts which are now never returning. They had a second chance to take this opportunity with the Minsk 2 accords which subsequently became an unopposed UNSC resolution. Instead they ignored these agreements, which is publicly admitted, with the encouragement/connivance of their western NATO sponsors.
      Further opportunities to end hostilities (eg Istanbul) were also spurned by Ukraine at the behest of their NATO masters. Each time this happens, it just leads to the next set of conditions to end hostilities becoming more punitive for the Ukraine/NATO.
      The ground already held by Russia being conceded by Ukraine is inevitable, HB. I believe that any settlement will go much further and include referendums in other regions who will be able to choose between full independence, remaining as part of Ukraine or rejoining Russia. Those that have already held referendums are Russian forever now.
      Whatever is left of Ukraine will serve as a stark wake up call to the leaders of other entities that are currently being encouraged by western/NATO countries to instigate military belligerence against superpowers. I'm sure Taiwanese leaders being promised US/NATO backing are paying attention(amongst others). NATO promises and assurances are worthless. Being NATO's latest cats paw has suddenly become a much more perilous position. Ukraine's defeat is NATO's defeat. NATO's defeat is Empire's defeat.

[Hardy Boy]

    It has been inevitable since day one, HB, that the only possible outcome of provoking Russia enough to fight them in their front yard would be Russian victory. The only valid question being, "What exactly does that victory look like?"
      UK/US/NATO belligerence and continued escalations serving only to make that final victory/settlement even less palatable. Had they accepted the Minsk 1 accords in 2014 then all the death would have been avoided as well the catastrophic displacement of people and economic destruction worldwide. Ukraine would also still include the breakaway oblasts which are now never returning. They had a second chance to take this opportunity with the Minsk 2 accords which subsequently became an unopposed UNSC resolution. Instead they ignored these agreements, which is publicly admitted, with the encouragement/connivance of their western NATO sponsors.
      Further opportunities to end hostilities (eg Istanbul) were also spurned by Ukraine at the behest of their NATO masters. Each time this happens, it just leads to the next set of conditions to end hostilities becoming more punitive for the Ukraine/NATO.
      The ground already held by Russia being conceded by Ukraine is inevitable, HB. I believe that any settlement will go much further and include referendums in other regions who will be able to choose between full independence, remaining as part of Ukraine or rejoining Russia. Those that have already held referendums are Russian forever now.
      Whatever is left of Ukraine will serve as a stark wake up call to the leaders of other entities that are currently being encouraged by western/NATO countries to instigate military belligerence against superpowers. I'm sure Taiwanese leaders being promised US/NATO backing are paying attention(amongst others). NATO promises and assurances are worthless. Being NATO's latest cats paw has suddenly become a much more perilous position. Ukraine's defeat is NATO's defeat. NATO's defeat is Empire's defeat.

Good points Gringo,  i think the only way forward now is for someone with some guts to say to Ukraine,  look no more Support, lets spare bloodshed and get negotiating.  Iv'e said it before and i will say it again, i'm not a fan of Putin, but he's got a point, NATO have been in his backyard for some while now, the Yanks wouldn't like it neither would any other Country.  At times i think he's shown some restraint, he has the weapons to Flatten Ukraine if he so wishes?

[gringo]

Good points Gringo,  i think the only way forward now is for someone with some guts to say to Ukraine,  look no more Support, lets spare bloodshed and get negotiating.  Iv'e said it before and i will say it again, i'm not a fan of Putin, but he's got a point, NATO have been in his backyard for some while now, the Yanks wouldn't like it neither would any other Country. At times i think he's shown some restraint, he has the weapons to Flatten Ukraine if he so wishes?

    All true, HB. The "leaders" of NATO countries are the biggest obstacle to peace in my view. When hostilities end, then the consequences follow and there is not a western politician, diplomat, media whore who isn't compromised. Their own populations, already in semi-open revolt, will be demanding blood once the whole sorry saga ends in the inevitable defeat of NATO, and with it the whole restructuring of international finance. This leads to an inevitable change in the balance of worldwide wealth/power to the detriment of western/NATO nations. To save their own sorry skins more lives are wasted simply delaying, not preventing, the inevitable.
      Putin and Russian "restraint" has served the strategic purpose of showing the depravity of Western Imperialism (via, US,UK,EU,G7, NATO et al) and has turned the world against the western bloc. Russia/Putin not showing restraint and going all out "Shock and Awe", NATO style would have worked against them and potentially isolated Russia. Western leaders expecting that response are victims of their own propaganda and hubris. They project way too much. The majority of the world have no intention of colonising and controlling the world. It is a western disease.

[Hardy Boy]

    All true, HB. The "leaders" of NATO countries are the biggest obstacle to peace in my view. When hostilities end, then the consequences follow and there is not a western politician, diplomat, media whore who isn't compromised. Their own populations, already in semi-open revolt, will be demanding blood once the whole sorry saga ends in the inevitable defeat of NATO, and with it the whole restructuring of international finance. This leads to an inevitable change in the balance of worldwide wealth/power to the detriment of western/NATO nations. To save their own sorry skins more lives are wasted simply delaying, not preventing, the inevitable.
      Putin and Russian "restraint" has served the strategic purpose of showing the depravity of Western Imperialism (via, US,UK,EU,G7, NATO et al) and has turned the world against the western bloc. Russia/Putin not showing restraint and going all out "Shock and Awe", NATO style would have worked against them and potentially isolated Russia. Western leaders expecting that response are victims of their own propaganda and hubris. They project way too much. The majority of the world have no intention of colonising and controlling the world. It is a western disease.

I bet Putin was shaking in his boots when Johnson and Truss made their threats, the Elephant's in the room are such people,  whats up with sitting down with Leaders and discussing their problems, maybe it could save lifes?   Such talk only inflames the situation, they wouldn't be so big if they had to go on the front line and face such.  I said it some while back,  Putin is fed up with the Greenback dominance which is used as sanctions against anyone who doesn't follow the USA code, and to think of the number of Countries who are hitting Russia with sanctions, i think he's done rather well and it's us who are suffering and paying the price?

[gringo]

I bet Putin was shaking in his boots when Johnson and Truss made their threats, the Elephant's in the room are such people,  whats up with sitting down with Leaders and discussing their problems, maybe it could save lifes?   Such talk only inflames the situation, they wouldn't be so big if they had to go on the front line and face such. I said it some while back,  Putin is fed up with the Greenback dominance which is used as sanctions against anyone who doesn't follow the USA code, and to think of the number of Countries who are hitting Russia with sanctions, i think he's done rather well and it's us who are suffering and paying the price?

   Many more are coming round to this view, HB, and this only grows the longer it lasts. The shit will hit the fan when terms are finally settled and the price to be paid is apparent.

[Steve_uk]

    It has been inevitable since day one, HB, that the only possible outcome of provoking Russia enough to fight them in their front yard would be Russian victory. The only valid question being, "What exactly does that victory look like?"
      UK/US/NATO belligerence and continued escalations serving only to make that final victory/settlement even less palatable. Had they accepted the Minsk 1 accords in 2014 then all the death would have been avoided as well the catastrophic displacement of people and economic destruction worldwide. Ukraine would also still include the breakaway oblasts which are now never returning. They had a second chance to take this opportunity with the Minsk 2 accords which subsequently became an unopposed UNSC resolution. Instead they ignored these agreements, which is publicly admitted, with the encouragement/connivance of their western NATO sponsors.
      Further opportunities to end hostilities (eg Istanbul) were also spurned by Ukraine at the behest of their NATO masters. Each time this happens, it just leads to the next set of conditions to end hostilities becoming more punitive for the Ukraine/NATO.
      The ground already held by Russia being conceded by Ukraine is inevitable, HB. I believe that any settlement will go much further and include referendums in other regions who will be able to choose between full independence, remaining as part of Ukraine or rejoining Russia. Those that have already held referendums are Russian forever now.
      Whatever is left of Ukraine will serve as a stark wake up call to the leaders of other entities that are currently being encouraged by western/NATO countries to instigate military belligerence against superpowers. I'm sure Taiwanese leaders being promised US/NATO backing are paying attention(amongst others). NATO promises and assurances are worthless. Being NATO's latest cats paw has suddenly become a much more perilous position. Ukraine's defeat is NATO's defeat. NATO's defeat is Empire's defeat.

You do overegg the pudding. Russian casualties thus far are 579,490. That's young men sent to their deaths by an ageing despot on the flimsiest of pretexts, talent wasted and families left to cope with their bereavement. So what if Ukraine had joined NATO and the European Union? What difference would it have made? I would like to know.

The Minsk accords were ambiguous in nature. Zelensky was not about to dismember his country in the same way Czechoslovakia was in 1938. As for future referendums, these cannot be held at the point of a gun. The OSCE would play a part, once all Russian troops were withdrawn from the country. Of course that's not going to happen now, at least not whilst Putin is in power.

[Steve_uk]

    All true, HB. The "leaders" of NATO countries are the biggest obstacle to peace in my view. When hostilities end, then the consequences follow and there is not a western politician, diplomat, media whore who isn't compromised. Their own populations, already in semi-open revolt, will be demanding blood once the whole sorry saga ends in the inevitable defeat of NATO, and with it the whole restructuring of international finance. This leads to an inevitable change in the balance of worldwide wealth/power to the detriment of western/NATO nations. To save their own sorry skins more lives are wasted simply delaying, not preventing, the inevitable.
      Putin and Russian "restraint" has served the strategic purpose of showing the depravity of Western Imperialism (via, US,UK,EU,G7, NATO et al) and has turned the world against the western bloc. Russia/Putin not showing restraint and going all out "Shock and Awe", NATO style would have worked against them and potentially isolated Russia. Western leaders expecting that response are victims of their own propaganda and hubris. They project way too much. The majority of the world have no intention of colonising and controlling the world. It is a western disease.

Not at all. The main culprit today is China, with economic capitalism and political communism.