Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 364148 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2715 on: April 05, 2023, 04:55:PM »
How George W. Bush saved millions of lives in Africa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmsfSKlYzo8

Offline Steve_uk

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Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2717 on: April 05, 2023, 07:37:PM »
Let's rebalance the picture a little. https://africacenter.org/spotlight/intervening-to-undermine-democracy-in-africa-russias-playbook-for-influence/
    Who We Are

The Africa Center is an academic institution within the U.S. Department of Defense established and funded by Congress for the study of security issues relating to Africa and serving as a forum for bilateral and multilateral research, communication, training, and exchange of ideas involving military and civilian participants.

     That is from their home page, Steve. Didn't do your due diligence did you?
     Doesn't really re-balance the picture does it?
     Maybe check your sources before posting. The US Department of Defence.
     The US DoD complaining about Russia in Africa on the one hand-African leaders calling out US Imperialism and crimes against Africa on the other hand. You really are clueless. If you seek confirmation bias-it is hardly surprising that you find some. It isn't credible and easily dismissed.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2023, 07:39:PM by gringo »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2718 on: April 05, 2023, 07:55:PM »
      David and Steve's links in order to counter the "US not wanted in Africa" posts only serve to emphasise the point. David linked to a report on "Morning Joe" on MSNBC. It is the equivalent of "Loose Women". Steve linked to a US Department of Defence founded and funded institution.
      You know what they say about self praise.
      Imagine if I linked to RT and the Russian MOD in order to prove that Russia were doing good in Africa. It would only be evidence that Russians say they are helping Africa. All Steve and David have shown is Americans lavishing themselves in praise. The people the US supposedly helped clearly don't share their view. 
     

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2719 on: April 05, 2023, 08:05:PM »
    Who We Are

The Africa Center is an academic institution within the U.S. Department of Defense established and funded by Congress for the study of security issues relating to Africa and serving as a forum for bilateral and multilateral research, communication, training, and exchange of ideas involving military and civilian participants.

     That is from their home page, Steve. Didn't do your due diligence did you?
     Doesn't really re-balance the picture does it?
     Maybe check your sources before posting. The US Department of Defence.
     The US DoD complaining about Russia in Africa on the one hand-African leaders calling out US Imperialism and crimes against Africa on the other hand. You really are clueless. If you seek confirmation bias-it is hardly surprising that you find some. It isn't credible and easily dismissed.
Why do you think Africans in the former French colonies are turning to Putin? Are they really in favour of his tyranny or maybe it's because they want perceived protection from Islamic extremism. Did you actually read the article posted and what is your response to the UN voting record of Russia on African issues?

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2720 on: April 05, 2023, 08:33:PM »
Why do you think Africans in the former French colonies are turning to Putin? Are they really in favour of his tyranny or maybe it's because they want perceived protection from Islamic extremism. Did you actually read the article posted and what is your response to the UN voting record of Russia on African issues?
    The reason that Africans generally are turning to Russia is because of the role played by the Soviet Union in gaining independence for the former colonies. The Russians are trusted because their track record there speaks for itself. As do the colonialist powers and histories in Africa speak for themselves.
     Your premise of "Putin's Tyranny" is entirely false and a very Western view. Africans don't see Putin as a tyrant so they are not "in favour of his tyranny". The entire premise of the article is false and is just US DoD propaganda.
    I stopped reading after a couple of paragraphs. It is unhinged propaganda. Then I went to their "About Us" page. Which explained the false premises and ridiculously loaded language.
    Whatever the article had to say vis a vis voting records is missing context without even bothering to look at what was said. The politics of the constituent parts of the UN (Security Council-General Assembly) are complicated and the voting records of countries are not always a reflection of their views. Much arm twisting, coercion, economic threats and much more are employed by the US. This is well known and reported.
     Would you consider an article by a Russian MOD sponsored institution as independent as long as it called itself "Africa Foundation"? You are taking the piss  :-[

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2721 on: April 05, 2023, 08:36:PM »
    The reason that Africans generally are turning to Russia is because of the role played by the Soviet Union in gaining independence for the former colonies. The Russians are trusted because their track record there speaks for itself. As do the colonialist powers and histories in Africa speak for themselves.
     Your premise of "Putin's Tyranny" is entirely false and a very Western view. Africans don't see Putin as a tyrant so they are not "in favour of his tyranny". The entire premise of the article is false and is just US DoD propaganda.
    I stopped reading after a couple of paragraphs. It is unhinged propaganda. Then I went to their "About Us" page. Which explained the false premises and ridiculously loaded language.
    Whatever the article had to say vis a vis voting records is missing context without even bothering to look at what was said. The politics of the constituent parts of the UN (Security Council-General Assembly) are complicated and the voting records of countries are not always a reflection of their views. Much arm twisting, coercion, economic threats and much more are employed by the US. This is well known and reported.
     Would you consider an article by a Russian MOD sponsored institution as independent as long as it called itself "Africa Foundation"? You are taking the piss  :-[
So you have forfeited your right to criticize. I don't consider Jimmy Dore as impartial, but I did the courtesy of listening to him.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2722 on: April 05, 2023, 08:38:PM »
Why do you think Africans in the former French colonies are turning to Putin? Are they really in favour of his tyranny or maybe it's because they want perceived protection from Islamic extremism. Did you actually read the article posted and what is your response to the UN voting record of Russia on African issues?
   The Africans want sovereignty and the freedom to develop their countries free from Western tyranny, theft and interference. They trust the Chinese and Russians based on historical deeds and current actions. It is really simple, Steve. Western colonialists histories are biting them on the arse. We are facing the consequences of our own tyranny.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2723 on: April 05, 2023, 09:07:PM »
So you have forfeited your right to criticize. I don't consider Jimmy Dore as impartial, but I did the courtesy of listening to him.
    Here are the first few paragraphs of your US Depatment of Defence article

Russia has systematically sought to undercut democracy in Africa, both to normalize authoritarianism as well as to create an entry point for Russian influence.
     I should have stopped reading there. Levering three false premises into the opening sentence already shows that this is a straight up propaganda piece. It is directly from the US DoD. It isn't written to "inform" you Steve  :-[ Anyway on it goes;

 It is often said that since the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the abandoning of communism that Russian foreign policy lacks an ideology.

However, in reading Samuel Ramani’s methodical chronicling of Russian foreign policy in Africa under President Vladimir Putin, Russia in Africa: Resurgent Great Power or Bellicose Pretender, an explicit and consistent ideology is strikingly evident—to prop up and normalize authoritarian governments.


     It is appallingly loaded language and not even disguised propaganda. There are so many lies and false premises levered into the opening three sentences that anything following them is already debunked on the basis of being built on false premises.
     You would think that an article seeking to explain their own ongoing eviction from Africa might contain at least some critique of their own actions, behaviour. Americans-self awareness-No none of that.  It's Russia to blame. Russia!! Putin!! Russia!!
       
     
   

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2724 on: April 06, 2023, 03:41:PM »
So you have forfeited your right to criticize. I don't consider Jimmy Dore as impartial, but I did the courtesy of listening to him.
    Jimmy Dore isn't calling himself AfricaCentre.org. Jimmy Dore is commenting as Jimmy Dore. He is open about his funding. It is already dishonest to call themselves AfricaCentre. There is no comparison to the biases of Jimmy Dore. He isn't pretending not to be partial. Why don't the US Department of Defence just put out the article you linked from a US DoD web address, do you think?
    I finished reading the article anyway and it is just lies built on misrepresentations. There is nothing to glean from it because it is based on deliberate falsehoods in its entirety. A western colonial view that thinks it knows best for Africans. It fails to address any possible western failures and shortcomings for the mistrust towards the West and just blames Russia. The lack of any self awareness and absence of any self criticism makes any "analysis" coming from it, moot.
     

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2725 on: April 06, 2023, 03:57:PM »
I really should stop pretending that Gringo is anything but a servile propagandist. Responding to him is like responding to a TV-ad. His posts are just a naked ruse to sell you on something.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2726 on: April 06, 2023, 05:51:PM »
"The key element in the tankie mindset is the simple-minded assumption that only the U.S. can be imperialist, and thus any country that opposes the U.S. must be supported."

https://web.archive.org/web/20220401103202/https://theintercept.com/2022/03/01/ukraine-russia-leftists-tankie/

Online handymanz

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2727 on: April 07, 2023, 12:42:AM »
"The key element in the tankie mindset is the simple-minded assumption that only the U.S. can be imperialist, and thus any country that opposes the U.S. must be supported."

https://web.archive.org/web/20220401103202/https://theintercept.com/2022/03/01/ukraine-russia-leftists-tankie/

So is Russia opposing the U.S. or NATO?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2023, 12:43:AM by handyman »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2728 on: April 07, 2023, 02:57:PM »
So is Russia opposing the U.S. or NATO?
The US is the lead member of NATO, which has never made incursions into Russian territory.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2729 on: April 07, 2023, 04:19:PM »
The US is the lead member of NATO, which has never made incursions into Russian territory.
    So close, Steve. You're nearly there. NATO is meant to be a defensive alliance. Lead member? US calls all of the shots in NATO and a bunch of vassals jump when told to.
     NATO is an attempt to give some kind of "international legitimacy" to US crimes. Every NATO intervention is at the behest of the US. Lead member of a defensive alliance is already a contradiction. How does a "defensive alliance" have a lead member? An aggressive alliance needs a leader. The world has always known this. Russia has broken the spell of NATO supremacy. The world, seeing that the Emperor is naked, are moving on.
      A natural consequence of your answer to Handyman is that the US is leading the expansion of NATO towards Russia and currently supplying weapons to strike into the Russian interior. What, exactly, are this "defensive alliance" currently defending by supplying weapons to a non member capable of and being used to strike civilian centres inside Russia?
      For a defensive alliance that has never been attacked-they have been involved in a lot of invasions and interventions. The only thing that NATO defends is the corrupt Western controlled Ponzi scheme whose grip on financial control is slipping daily.