Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 365221 times)

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Offline killingeve

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2415 on: February 02, 2023, 10:02:AM »
   How has listening to people such as Jim Rickard changed your perspective, CC? I get the feeling, myself, that a few uncomfortable truths are getting a bit too difficult to cover up and whitewash and which is encouraging more people to dig a little deeper.
     Highlighted in red- Nothing could be more true, CC. More people should venture outside of their own echo chamber and listen to views and opinions that challenge their own world view. Hold it all up to scrutiny. It is the only way.

Hi gringo.  I must confess I didn't take much notice, if any, of Crimea and Georgia so when Russia invaded Ukraine I was somewhat surprised.  But I take the view there's nearly always two sides to an argument!  It didn't seem to fit that Putin woke up one morning and decided to grab some or all of Ukraine's land solely for territorial reasons.  A lot of what I was hearing in the mainstream media didn't seem to make sense and/or was irrelevant eg attempting to draw parellels with Hitler/WW2, Putin's state of health, significant other(s) and fathering children.  Also the clamping down on Oligarchs ie the West knew about all of this so why wait to take action?  It seemed somewhat hypocritical.  So I started to look for alternative views.  Jim Rickards seems to make more sense to me and he's not some anti-establishment figure for the sake of it. 

I am not condoning Putin's actions but I think Russia was provoked by the West's attempts to expand NATO. The whole thing could have, and should have imo, been avoided by leaders agreeing a neutral buffer zone.   

Offline Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2416 on: February 02, 2023, 10:29:AM »
Hi gringo.  I must confess I didn't take much notice, if any, of Crimea and Georgia so when Russia invaded Ukraine I was somewhat surprised.  But I take the view there's nearly always two sides to an argument!  It didn't seem to fit that Putin woke up one morning and decided to grab some or all of Ukraine's land solely for territorial reasons.  A lot of what I was hearing in the mainstream media didn't seem to make sense and/or was irrelevant eg attempting to draw parellels with Hitler/WW2, Putin's state of health, significant other(s) and fathering children.  Also the clamping down on Oligarchs ie the West knew about all of this so why wait to take action?  It seemed somewhat hypocritical.  So I started to look for alternative views.  Jim Rickards seems to make more sense to me and he's not some anti-establishment figure for the sake of it. 

I am not condoning Putin's actions but I think Russia was provoked by the West's attempts to expand NATO. The whole thing could have, and should have imo, been avoided by leaders agreeing a neutral buffer zone.   

I agree with you.

Don't know anything about Rickards but I expect you're probably right.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2417 on: February 02, 2023, 01:57:PM »
Hi gringo.  I must confess I didn't take much notice, if any, of Crimea and Georgia so when Russia invaded Ukraine I was somewhat surprised.  But I take the view there's nearly always two sides to an argument!  It didn't seem to fit that Putin woke up one morning and decided to grab some or all of Ukraine's land solely for territorial reasons.  A lot of what I was hearing in the mainstream media didn't seem to make sense and/or was irrelevant eg attempting to draw parellels with Hitler/WW2, Putin's state of health, significant other(s) and fathering children.  Also the clamping down on Oligarchs ie the West knew about all of this so why wait to take action?  It seemed somewhat hypocritical.  So I started to look for alternative views.  Jim Rickards seems to make more sense to me and he's not some anti-establishment figure for the sake of it. 

I am not condoning Putin's actions but I think Russia was provoked by the West's attempts to expand NATO. The whole thing could have, and should have imo, been avoided by leaders agreeing a neutral buffer zone.   
   Thanks for the reply, CC. It is more telling to hear the views of someone like yourself on this- the majority of the country who pay little to no attention to wider geopolitics-who just want to get on with their lives. If the propaganda is starting to wear thin with them-then the whole enterprise is in trouble.
    I am finding that lately, purely my own personal experience, that more people are seeing through the silly propaganda that calls itself, "The News".
   The part highlighted in red- I think people are beginning to realise this. Public support is vital to realise their ambitions and this can only come from a successful propaganda campaign to demonise Russia and Putin personally. NATO do this with every intervention they make-demonise the leader. With people's heads full of propaganda about, Gaddafi, Assad, Saddam-NATO then bombs and destroys the lives of ordinary civilians and enough people in the West believe we are the good guys, the cavalry riding into town to save them from Gaddafi, Assad... that is why it hasn't changed in 30/40 years.
   The destruction and lies have finally come up against Russia. And they are falling apart in front of our eyes. The plausible veneer being stripped away has led to the "silent majority" paying more attention. The greater the scrutiny-the more the narrative crumbles.
    The only way this ends-short of armageddon- is Western publics calling to account NATO governments and aggression. Hopefully we are getting there. You have expressed the same sentiments that I am hearing from others who initially went along with the prevailing narrative. The "silent majority" are beginning to turn.
    Thank you for your full reply.
 
   
   
   
     

Offline Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2418 on: February 02, 2023, 02:35:PM »
This must be one of the longest threads on the forum.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2419 on: February 02, 2023, 02:57:PM »
This must be one of the longest threads on the forum.
   Shows how long it's been going on, Roch.

     Here are the BBC just over 8 years ago reporting on Ukraine-what they call Russian disinformation now;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY&ab_channel=BBCNewsnight

 

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2420 on: February 02, 2023, 04:32:PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2005/08/30/us-to-aid-ukraine-in-countering-bioweapons/72059ed1-90ca-4381-ac6f-10f4e205f09e/
   The bio-weapons labs scandal is not going away, Handyman. Russia have presented reams of evidence to the UN. Your link shows just how long this has been going on and how long the US/NATO plans go back. The WaPo story from 2005, seen in light of what we know now, raises more questions than it purports to answer.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2421 on: February 02, 2023, 04:34:PM »
Russia's visually confirmed losses in military equipment has now surpassed the 9000 milestone

destroyed: 5694
damaged: 242
abandoned: 306
captured: 2759

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2422 on: February 02, 2023, 04:40:PM »
This must be one of the longest threads on the forum.

The longest threat is "what makes Bamber innocent?" consisting of 246 pages.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2423 on: February 02, 2023, 04:44:PM »
   The bio-weapons labs scandal is not going away, Handyman. Russia have presented reams of evidence to the UN.

Not true.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129952

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2424 on: February 02, 2023, 04:57:PM »
"Their accusations relate to real laboratories—ones that were performing epidemiological surveillance around the country, in Eastern Europe, and the Caucuses, and doing so transparently and in collaboration with neighboring countries and international partners such as the World Health Organization and the World Organization for Animal Health.

What the ambassador failed to mention was that Russian scientists visited these same laboratories in the past and never noted anything like what Russian officials now claim. Moreover, the United States had been collaborating with Russia in the same way—providing similar assistance to Russia to refocus the activities of former Soviet biological weapons laboratories, until Russia pulled out of the program in 2014, the same year it invaded Crimea.

Additionally, even Russian sources have said the accusations concerning biological weapons labs are false a group of independent Russian scientists who reviewed the documents the Russian government claimed to have seized that it said “proved” its case stated in an open letter to Russian media outlets that “the 'evidence' offered by the media is obviously false. It does not imply any development of biological weapons or even the use of particularly dangerous pathogens in the laboratories.”
"


https://www.rand.org/blog/2022/09/debunking-russian-lies-about-biolabs-at-upcoming-un.html

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2425 on: February 02, 2023, 04:59:PM »
Not true.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129952
   "The UN’s High Representative for Disarmament Affairs, Izumu Nakamitsu, had previously informed ambassadors – first in March, and then again in May – that the UN had seen no evidence of biological weapons use in Ukraine."

“This remains the case today,” her Deputy, Adedeji Ebo, told the Council.

“I would also like to note that the United Nations currently has neither the mandate nor the technical or operational capacity to investigate this information,” he added.

   


    At least read the links you post first before arriving at conclusions not supported by your link.
    Understand the difference between declaring that "seen no evidence of biological weapons use" and "the United Nations currently has neither the mandate nor the technical or operational capacity to investigate this information,” 
 
     Nobody has made any allegations of "biological weapons use in Ukraine" It is denying something that hasn't been asked. They also clarify that the "UN has "neither the mandate nor the technical or operational capacity to investigate this information,” 

     The evidence has been meticulously gathered and presented. Your link proves that-you just don't know how to parse the information you are presented and draw false inferences and conclusions. You should read things over a bit more before arriving at conclusions not supported by your "presented evidence"

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2426 on: February 02, 2023, 05:01:PM »
    Quoting RAND, verbatim, is not evidence. RAND are not, by any stretch, impartial.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2427 on: February 02, 2023, 05:11:PM »
   David, your own link from the UN proves exactly what I said. By admitting that they don't have the "mandate and technical know how to investigate this information" they are-by obvious inference to anyone who knows how to read-admitting that the evidence has been presented. Russia have made sure of this. It will be investigated by competent authorities in time-for now Russia will keep gathering and presenting the evidence.
    The US were doing something in all of those admitted biolabs with Pentagon funding. They have been busy destroying stuff in the others to "prevent the Russians getting their hands on it"(Victoria Nuland-Senate-hearings). You would be interested if the boot was on the other foot. Your attempts to brush it away show your unwillingness to acknowledge truth. You are only interested in Russia bad. You need to open your eyes to uncomfortable truths.
   

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2428 on: February 02, 2023, 05:30:PM »
     The US biolabs are without any international oversight-the US will allow no independent investigation-and the admissions that have been wrought from them are inconsistent. Anyone objective should be alarmed by this secretive, militarily funded world wide network of biolabs operating outside of any oversight. If you're not alarmed-you really need to get your blinkers off  :o

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2429 on: February 02, 2023, 06:27:PM »
    Quoting RAND, verbatim, is not evidence. RAND are not, by any stretch, impartial.

Yes, all facts contrary to your beliefs are western propaganda 🙄

https://www.science.org/content/article/russians-must-know-it-s-lie-ukrainian-bat-research-spun-false-tale-bioweapons