Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 363086 times)

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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2190 on: January 06, 2023, 05:49:PM »
https://youtu.be/yRF_mjMndHs
This was quite a fair discussion, and I don't doubt the sincerity of the anti-war movement. If you believe Putin has no more territorial ambitions then Ukraine should sue for peace, but it's up to their government to decide.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2191 on: January 07, 2023, 03:09:AM »
This was quite a fair discussion, and I don't doubt the sincerity of the anti-war movement. If you believe Putin has no more territorial ambitions then Ukraine should sue for peace, but it's up to their government to decide.
   Putin and Russia never had any territorial ambitions. It is the western countries who covet territory. Putin has been clear from the start that that the Ukrainians should decide their own status. Self determination. A lot of Eastern and Southern oblasts will vote to align with Russia. This has always been clear. 
    It is also unfortunate but true, Steve, that suing for peace in not in the gift of the "Ukrainian government" who cannot be seriously viewed as anything but a puppet of NATO. Whose interests are they serving by throwing more and more Ukrainians into the Russian meatgrinder. Zelensky has no agency and the western war propaganda is nauseating. They care only for the land and its resources, not the people.
    Russia neither want nor need the resources of Ukraine. NATO does.
    As an aside, I am surprised at you linking to Jimmy Dore. I think he is excellent and I know Nugs links to him often. Bizarre that you can get more honest news from a night club comedian than the actual News
     

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2192 on: January 07, 2023, 06:29:PM »
   Putin and Russia never had any territorial ambitions. It is the western countries who covet territory. Putin has been clear from the start that that the Ukrainians should decide their own status. Self determination. A lot of Eastern and Southern oblasts will vote to align with Russia. This has always been clear. 
    It is also unfortunate but true, Steve, that suing for peace in not in the gift of the "Ukrainian government" who cannot be seriously viewed as anything but a puppet of NATO. Whose interests are they serving by throwing more and more Ukrainians into the Russian meatgrinder. Zelensky has no agency and the western war propaganda is nauseating. They care only for the land and its resources, not the people.
    Russia neither want nor need the resources of Ukraine. NATO does.
    As an aside, I am surprised at you linking to Jimmy Dore. I think he is excellent and I know Nugs links to him often. Bizarre that you can get more honest news from a night club comedian than the actual News
   
Russia has regressed into a quasi-democratic state. Leaving aside the appalling record of the Soviet Union on human rights the rot started in 2008 with the incursion into Georgian territory: https://youtu.be/PXwDbDpsLDA

Putin was then emboldened to annexe Crimea (no link needed).

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2193 on: January 07, 2023, 07:52:PM »
Russia has regressed into a quasi-democratic state. Leaving aside the appalling record of the Soviet Union on human rights the rot started in 2008 with the incursion into Georgian territory: https://youtu.be/PXwDbDpsLDA

Putin was then emboldened to annexe Crimea (no link needed).
  Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. No annexation or link needed.
    What do you think should happen to the Crimeans who want no part of a Ukrainian government? Do you not believe in the right of self determination for Crimeans? What would your solution to this quandary be? Would you support the Ukrainian government in whatever it is they would need to do to stop the Crimeans rebelling against a regime forced upon them?
    Answer those questions, if you can. What are your proposals?

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2194 on: January 07, 2023, 08:01:PM »
Russia has regressed into a quasi-democratic state. Leaving aside the appalling record of the Soviet Union on human rights the rot started in 2008 with the incursion into Georgian territory: https://youtu.be/PXwDbDpsLDA

Putin was then emboldened to annexe Crimea (no link needed).
   Did you know, Steve, that Crimeans also voted to remain with Russia in 1991 in a union state. The Crimean parliament declared itself sovereign albeit not recognised.
    The point being that any accusation of forced annexation is betrayed by even a brief awareness of the history of Crimea. They(the Crimean people) do not want to be part of Ukraine. Not now or ever. Here is the wikipedia link. There are better places for the unbiased history of Crimea but Wiki will do for you;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum


Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2195 on: January 07, 2023, 09:09:PM »
  Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. No annexation or link needed.
    What do you think should happen to the Crimeans who want no part of a Ukrainian government? Do you not believe in the right of self determination for Crimeans? What would your solution to this quandary be? Would you support the Ukrainian government in whatever it is they would need to do to stop the Crimeans rebelling against a regime forced upon them?
    Answer those questions, if you can. What are your proposals?
Probably autonomy for the Crimeans, but they were part of Ukraine at the time of the illegal invasion by Russia.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2196 on: January 07, 2023, 09:31:PM »
Probably autonomy for the Crimeans, but they were part of Ukraine at the time of the illegal invasion by Russia.
  They were only part of the Ukraine because of the messy break up of the USSR. Crimea and Crimeans are an integral part of Russian history.
   If you believe in autonomy for the Crimeans, as you say, then tacitly you support the Russian position. Russia recognised the autonomy of the Crimeans, our governments don't. Your position seems confused.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2197 on: January 07, 2023, 09:50:PM »
Probably autonomy for the Crimeans, but they were part of Ukraine at the time of the illegal invasion by Russia.
   Can you explain the contradictions in your answer and your stated position because they are incompatible?

   1. You support the UK gov., NATO, EU(what our media laughably terms "The International Community") position that Crimea must be returned to Ukraine.
   2. Russia believe in the right of self determination for the Crimeans.
   3. Crimeans have made clear repeatedly that they want autonomy, have voted for it twice(1991 and 2014) and refuse to be part of Ukraine.
   4. You also now support Crimean self determination(autonomy).
   5. You are agreeing with the Russian and Crimeans position but support those who oppose it.

    Are you sure that you are up to speed and know what is going on? You cannot hold both positions. You need to come out as a "Putin apologist" or whatever the term is now. Believing in self determination for Crimea is not in the western script. It is what  started all the trouble and now it turns out you support the Russian position.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2023, 01:37:AM by gringo »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2198 on: January 08, 2023, 02:57:AM »
Putin was then emboldened to annexe Crimea (no link needed).


    More than any other issue, the Crimean question demonstrates the priorities of the opposing sides. It also demonstrates which side is the malevolent actor in this.

    Russia didn't recognise the initial claim of sovereignty by the Crimeans in 1991 despite the Crimeans holding a referendum. They only changed this stance in 2014 after the blatant coup by the US and others in Ukraine. The Crimeans understood that they and their culture, history and language were now to be outlawed and cleansed from the region.
   It was Russia's duty to protect the Crimeans at this stage. The same is true in other Eastern and Southern oblasts in Ukraine. They will all now get to decide their own status. Russia is fighting to protect people, Ukraine is being used as a proxy by NATO, who covet only the rich and strategic land that the population are in the way of.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2199 on: January 08, 2023, 04:57:AM »
Putin was then emboldened to annexe Crimea (no link needed).


    More than any other issue, the Crimean question demonstrates the priorities of the opposing sides. It also demonstrates which side is the malevolent actor in this.

    Russia didn't recognise the initial claim of sovereignty by the Crimeans in 1991 despite the Crimeans holding a referendum. They only changed this stance in 2014 after the blatant coup by the US and others in Ukraine. The Crimeans understood that they and their culture, history and language were now to be outlawed and cleansed from the region.
   It was Russia's duty to protect the Crimeans at this stage. The same is true in other Eastern and Southern oblasts in Ukraine. They will all now get to decide their own status. Russia is fighting to protect people, Ukraine is being used as a proxy by NATO, who covet only the rich and strategic land that the population are in the way of.
Why not have the referendum without sneakily invading Crimea? Wouldn't it have been fairer to invite international observers to all the referendums rather than march people to the polling booth at the other end of a rifle barrel?

From Steven Pifer 5/12/2019:

Since 2014, when Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine, the United States has provided Ukraine with $3 billion in reform and military assistance and $3 billion in loan guarantees. U.S. troops in western Ukraine train their Ukrainian colleagues. Washington, in concert with the European Union, has taken steps to isolate Moscow politically and imposed a series of economic and visa sanctions on Russia and Russians.

The furor over President Donald Trump’s sordid bid to extort the president of Ukraine into investigating his potential 2020 political opponent raises an obvious question: Why should the United States care so much about Ukraine, a country 5,000 miles away? A big part of the reason is that U.S. officials told the Ukrainians the United States would care when negotiating the Budapest Memorandum on security assurances, signed 25 years ago this week.

In the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the United States, Russia, and Britain committed “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “to refrain from the threat or use of force” against the country. Those assurances played a key role in persuading the Ukrainian government in Kyiv to give up what amounted to the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal, consisting of some 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads.

When the USSR broke up in late 1991, there were nuclear weapons scattered in the resulting post-Soviet states. The George H. W. Bush administration attached highest priority to ensuring this would not lead to an increase in the number of nuclear weapons states. Moreover, as it watched Yugoslavia break apart violently, the Bush administration worried that the Soviet collapse might also turn violent, raising the prospect of conflict among nuclear-armed states. Ensuring no increase in the number of nuclear weapons states meant that, in practice, only Russia would retain nuclear arms. The Clinton administration pursued the same goal. With the prospect of extending the Non-Proliferation Treaty indefinitely looming, an alternative course that allowed other post-Soviet states to keep nuclear weapons would have set a bad precedent.

Eliminating the strategic nuclear warheads, intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), and strategic bombers in Ukraine was a big deal for Washington. The ICBMs and bombers carried warheads of monstrous size — all designed, built, and deployed to attack America. The warheads atop the SS-19 and SS-24 ICBMs in Ukraine had explosive yields of 400-550 kilotons each — that is, 27 to 37 times the size of the atomic bomb that devastated Hiroshima. The 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads — more than six times the number of nuclear warheads that China currently possesses — could have destroyed every U.S. city with a population of more than 50,000 three times over, with warheads left to spare.

Before agreeing to give up this nuclear arsenal, Kyiv sought three assurances. First, it wanted compensation for the value of the highly-enriched uranium in the nuclear warheads, which could be blended down for use as fuel for nuclear reactors. Russia agreed to provide that.

Second, eliminating ICBMs, ICBM silos, and bombers did not come cheaply. With its economy rapidly contracting, the Ukrainian government could not afford the costs. The United States agreed to cover those costs with Nunn-Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction assistance.

Third, Ukraine wanted guarantees or assurances of its security once it got rid of the nuclear arms. The Budapest Memorandum provided security assurances.

Unfortunately, Russia has broken virtually all the commitments it undertook in that document. It used military force to seize, and then illegally annex, Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula in early 2014. Russian and Russian proxy forces have waged war for more than five years in the eastern Ukrainian region of Donbas, claiming more than 13,000 lives and driving some two million people from their homes.

Some have argued that, since the United States did not invade Ukraine, it abided by its Budapest Memorandum commitments. True, in a narrow sense. However, when negotiating the security assurances, U.S. officials told their Ukrainian counterparts that, were Russia to violate them, the United States would take a strong interest and respond.

Washington did not promise unlimited support. The Budapest Memorandum contains security “assurances,” not “guarantees.” Guarantees would have implied a commitment of American military force, which NATO members have. U.S. officials made clear that was not on offer. Hence, assurances.

Beyond that, U.S. and Ukrainian officials did not discuss in detail how Washington might respond in the event of a Russian violation. That owed in part to then-Russian President Boris Yeltsin. He had his flaws, but he insisted that there be no revision of the boundaries separating the states that emerged from the Soviet collapse. Yeltsin respected Ukraine’s independence and territorial integrity. Vladimir Putin does not.

U.S. officials did assure their Ukrainian counterparts, however, that there would be a response. The United States should continue to provide reform and military assistance to Ukraine. It should continue sanctions on Russia. It should continue to demand that Moscow end its aggression against Ukraine. And it should continue to urge its European partners to assist Kyiv and keep the sanctions pressure on the Kremlin.

Washington should do this, because it said it would act if Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum. That was part of the price it paid in return for a drastic reduction in the nuclear threat to America. The United States should keep its word.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2023, 04:59:AM by Steve_uk »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2200 on: January 08, 2023, 12:36:PM »
Why not have the referendum without sneakily invading Crimea? Wouldn't it have been fairer to invite international observers to all the referendums rather than march people to the polling booth at the other end of a rifle barrel?

   You are all over the place. You are so indoctrinated with racist anti Russian propaganda that it has affected your ability to think straight. When was Crimea "sneakily invaded"? It didn't happen. If your tale requires inventions of events that didn't happen then you need to consider your position.
   Russian and Ukrainian troops were stationed in Crimea at the the time of the Maidan coup. No-one invaded. Crimeans made clear they would not obey the writ of a government they considered illegitimate. Ukrainian troops refused to fight for the illegal govt.
    Why outright lie about events? How many people died in the invasion of Crimea? How many Crimeans would have been ethnically cleansed by the Ukrainian regime if Russia hadn't accepted their responsibility to protect the Crimeans? Those shouting the loudest about Crimea care only for the land. The people are in the way. Stop supporting Nazis.
    The rest of the diatribe/paid propaganda piece that you posted was just a repeat of the same tired lies. Ultimately you either support the Crimean right to self determination or you support the Nazis who want their land but not them.
    You claim to do both. Your brain is puddled from years of indoctrination.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2201 on: January 08, 2023, 03:26:PM »
Why not have the referendum without sneakily invading Crimea? Wouldn't it have been fairer to invite international observers to all the referendums rather than march people to the polling booth at the other end of a rifle barrel?

   You are all over the place. You are so indoctrinated with racist anti Russian propaganda that it has affected your ability to think straight. When was Crimea "sneakily invaded"? It didn't happen. If your tale requires inventions of events that didn't happen then you need to consider your position.
   Russian and Ukrainian troops were stationed in Crimea at the the time of the Maidan coup. No-one invaded. Crimeans made clear they would not obey the writ of a government they considered illegitimate. Ukrainian troops refused to fight for the illegal govt.
    Why outright lie about events? How many people died in the invasion of Crimea? How many Crimeans would have been ethnically cleansed by the Ukrainian regime if Russia hadn't accepted their responsibility to protect the Crimeans? Those shouting the loudest about Crimea care only for the land. The people are in the way. Stop supporting Nazis.
    The rest of the diatribe/paid propaganda piece that you posted was just a repeat of the same tired lies. Ultimately you either support the Crimean right to self determination or you support the Nazis who want their land but not them.
    You claim to do both. Your brain is puddled from years of indoctrination.
What nonsense gringo. Russian military personnel were allowed access to Crimea because of the bases, which they had access to until 2042. Thereafter with a westward-looking Ukraine who knows what would have happened? They established checkpoints at Armyansk and Chongar, dressed in Ukrainian military uniforms they had stolen.  It's Russia that cared more about the Sevastopol base than the interests of Ukrainian citizens.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2202 on: January 08, 2023, 04:14:PM »
It's Russia that cared more about the Sevastopol base than the interests of Ukrainian citizens.

     The "Ukrainian citizens" that you refer to do not consider themselves to be Ukrainian citizens. Why do you call them Ukrainians?
      It is already established that NATO and its proxy coup government in Kiev don't care for the rights of the Crimean people to self determination. If they did then they would respect the choice that the Crimeans have made.
     Crimea has only ever been part of Ukraine as a bureaucratic move by Khrushchev in the 1950's. It was added to Soviet State of Ukraine but still part of the Soviet Union. The culture, the language, the history and the inhabitants of Crimea are ethnic Russian, speak Russian, celebrate Russian culture and history.
     The only time that Crimea has been considered part of an "Independent state called Ukraine" is since the break up of the Soviet Union in 1991. As I have already pointed out, the Crimeans organised a referendum at this time (1991) and declared themselves independent and sovereign from Ukraine. They (the Crimeans) have never been Ukrainians.
     The successor state (Russia) to the Soviet Union did not recognise this referendum and nor did others. The reasons for this non recognition by Russia are complex and nuanced but to put it in a nutshell - The new Russian state was in no position to involve itself in the midst of its own messy break up and the plundering and looting of its wealth and resources by vulture capitalism, corporations and other interests?.
      Anyway, back to the Crimeans(not Ukrainians).
      So since being forced into the newly independent State of Ukraine in 1991, the Crimeans and their parliament voted on and declared independence from the newly independent State of Ukraine. Nothing to do with Russian annexation or Russian "fake referendum". A simple and overwhelmingly expessed desire (over 92%) since 1991 that they are not now or ever Ukrainian.
     Russia acted correctly in 2014 protecting them from a regime that desires only their land.
     You, Steve, appear to not understand that your position is inconsistent. You claim to believe in the right of self determination and then support the side that don't recognise this.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2203 on: January 08, 2023, 05:14:PM »
Gringo still trying to put a positive spin on Putins botched and embarrassing invasion in Ukraine.  :))

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2204 on: January 08, 2023, 05:46:PM »
Why Russia's Airforce is Grounded During War With Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGoHU8pR0RM