Russia - worrying?

[gringo]

Putin controls the mass media, he controls the Duma and he controls the judiciary. Strange with all these advantages he garnered 49% in opinion polls (far less among the youth) yet 76% in the Presidential election.

Any opposition to him from wherever it emanates is crushed: https://youtu.be/m9SJ2hx9wmo

The third paragraph of the Budapest Memorandum you quote analysed:

The third paragraph holds the parties to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest Ukraine’s exercise of its sovereign rights. Since 2014, Russia has imposed embargoes on Ukrainian essential raw materials and agricultural products. The UK and the US did not engage in economic coercion against Ukraine.


Unfortunately, Russia has broken virtually all the commitments it undertook in that document. It used military force to seize, and then illegally annex, Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula in early 2014. Russian and Russian proxy forces have waged war for more than five years in the eastern Ukrainian region of Donbas, claiming more than 13,000 lives and driving some two million people from their homes.

   The economic coercion by the US is openly admitted. That is why I referred to it. The US spent $5bn to get their people in the government in the 2014 Maidan coup. Look up the Victoria Nuland/ Geoffrey Pyatt leaked phone call. There is little doubt that the US used economic coercion.
   There is also no doubt that Zelensky nullifies it anyway by declaring his ambition to seek nuclear warheads.
    Your claim of Russia and proxy forces is demonstrably false. The Donbass militias are residents of Donbass. They are Ukrainians, not Russians. The civilian deaths, recorded by the OSCE, make clear that it is the Ukrainian armed forces who have been shelling Donbass residents for the last 8 years. The OSCE figures tell this tale. Not Russia.
     The Ukrainian government has been in breach of the Minsk 2 accords from day one. Minsk 2 is also UNSC 2202. Russia made sure to put Minsk 2 to the UNSC because of the failure of the Kiev government to abide by Minsk 1.
     I am aware that the only thing that David and Steve know about Minsk 2/UNSC 2202 is what they have heard/read in the media. Russia must fulfil its obligations was the constant line. These obligations were never laid out however. The reasons for this are simple. Russia was not a party to and had no "obligations" to fulfil under Minsk 2. The Minsk 2 accords were an agreement by the Ukrainian government with the separatists to negotiate federalisation and to immediately ceasefire. They did none of this and carried on shelling citizens who wanted no part of the Maidan Russia hating coup government.
    You ought to look up the Debaltseve cauldron. The many NATO forces caught in this cauldron is the reason that Minsk 2 came about and became a United Nations Security Council resolution(2202). Why do you think it wasn't vetoed by US, UK or France despite it being favourable to the separatists and putting no obligations on Russia? You know none of this because it isn't reported in the sources that you read.

[gringo]

and democracy denied to Hong Kong after guaranteeing "one country, two systems" for fifty years?

You're having a laugh.

    Your concern for the citizens of Hong Kong and the denial of democracy is a day late and a dollar short. The British seized Hong Kong from China in order that they could trade opium. Hong Kong under British rule was not democratic. It was ruled by a governor. Why are you supposedly concerned now about a system you know nothing of? The world is piece by piece shaking off the shackles of hundreds of years of western imperialism. Your faux concern for Hong Kong is what is funny. I am having a laugh at you.

[David1819]

Russian oligarch’s $300 million yacht found hidden in a creek.

https://fortune.com/2022/06/02/russian-oligarch-300-million-yacht-found-in-creek/

[Steve_uk]

   The economic coercion by the US is openly admitted. That is why I referred to it. The US spent $5bn to get their people in the government in the 2014 Maidan coup. Look up the Victoria Nuland/ Geoffrey Pyatt leaked phone call. There is little doubt that the US used economic coercion.
   There is also no doubt that Zelensky nullifies it anyway by declaring his ambition to seek nuclear warheads.
    Your claim of Russia and proxy forces is demonstrably false. The Donbass militias are residents of Donbass. They are Ukrainians, not Russians. The civilian deaths, recorded by the OSCE, make clear that it is the Ukrainian armed forces who have been shelling Donbass residents for the last 8 years. The OSCE figures tell this tale. Not Russia.
     The Ukrainian government has been in breach of the Minsk 2 accords from day one. Minsk 2 is also UNSC 2202. Russia made sure to put Minsk 2 to the UNSC because of the failure of the Kiev government to abide by Minsk 1.
     I am aware that the only thing that David and Steve know about Minsk 2/UNSC 2202 is what they have heard/read in the media. Russia must fulfil its obligations was the constant line. These obligations were never laid out however. The reasons for this are simple. Russia was not a party to and had no "obligations" to fulfil under Minsk 2. The Minsk 2 accords were an agreement by the Ukrainian government with the separatists to negotiate federalisation and to immediately ceasefire. They did none of this and carried on shelling citizens who wanted no part of the Maidan Russia hating coup government.
    You ought to look up the Debaltseve cauldron. The many NATO forces caught in this cauldron is the reason that Minsk 2 came about and became a United Nations Security Council resolution(2202). Why do you think it wasn't vetoed by US, UK or France despite it being favourable to the separatists and putting no obligations on Russia? You know none of this because it isn't reported in the sources that you read.

What nonsense. The UN resolution 2202 was not vetoed because it reaffirmed "full respect for the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Ukraine." Minsk 2 did not enviasge a de facto independent Luhansk and Donetsk, with its own police force, judiciary and ability to make agreements with foreign powers.

[gringo]

What nonsense. The UN resolution 2202 was not vetoed because it reaffirmed "full respect for the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Ukraine." Minsk 2 did not enviasge a de facto independent Luhansk and Donetsk, with its own police force, judiciary and ability to make agreements with foreign powers.

   This was all reported and discussed at the time of Minsk 2. You clearly have not followed world affairs outside of occasional western reporting. The cauldron at Debaltseve is what led directly to Minsk 2 and this isn't disputed by anyone serious. Minsk 2 places obligations on the Ukraine govt. to negotiate federalism for the breakaway republics with the separatists. It also called for an immediate ceasefire which was broken almost immediately. Of course it envisages separate police, judiciary etc.
     Minsk 2 places all obligations on Ukraine to negotiate with separatists. You have no idea of the circumstances leading to any of the agreements/resolutions and it shows.
     Research the Debaltseve cauldron.
     Ask yourself why the western powers didn't veto the draft of Minsk 2 but now refer to Russia failing its obligations but without naming these obligations. Why would the western powers not negotiate and present a different' more acceptable to them, draft?
     The separatists had a gun to the head of the Ukraine government and also, more importantly, they had a gun to the head of those powers who could veto the resolution. There were NATO troops who had no legal reason to be there caught in a massive cauldron who had the choice of capture or death. The US/UK/France chose not to veto UNSC 2202 because the alternative was way worse. I, and many others followed this in real time, at the time.
     You have clearly just googled it earlier.

[gringo]

Russian oligarch’s $300 million yacht found hidden in a creek.


   Russia running out of super yachts by mid June.
   Western media running out of bullshit.

[Steve_uk]

   This was all reported and discussed at the time of Minsk 2. You clearly have not followed world affairs outside of occasional western reporting. The cauldron at Debaltseve is what led directly to Minsk 2 and this isn't disputed by anyone serious. Minsk 2 places obligations on the Ukraine govt. to negotiate federalism for the breakaway republics with the separatists. It also called for an immediate ceasefire which was broken almost immediately. Of course it envisages separate police, judiciary etc.
     Minsk 2 places all obligations on Ukraine to negotiate with separatists. You have no idea of the circumstances leading to any of the agreements/resolutions and it shows.
     Research the Debaltseve cauldron.
     Ask yourself why the western powers didn't veto the draft of Minsk 2 but now refer to Russia failing its obligations but without naming these obligations. Why would the western powers not negotiate and present a different' more acceptable to them, draft?
     The separatists had a gun to the head of the Ukraine government and also, more importantly, they had a gun to the head of those powers who could veto the resolution. There were NATO troops who had no legal reason to be there caught in a massive cauldron who had the choice of capture or death. The US/UK/France chose not to veto UNSC 2202 because the alternative was way worse. I, and many others followed this in real time, at the time.
     You have clearly just googled it earlier.

Let's cut to the chase gringo. There is a civil war going on in Ukraine since March 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea. You have no evidence whatsoever that a majority of Ukrainian citizens in Luhansk and Donetsk back the rebels, neither do you have evidence that a majority in those areas wish to leave Ukraine and unite with Russia.

[David1819]

Russian oligarch’s $300 million yacht found hidden in a creek.


   Russia running out of super yachts by mid June.
   Western media running out of bullshit.

One cannot be "running out of bullshit" as there is a limitless amount of bullshit one can produce. Hence you often post drivel on this subject consisting of dozens upon dozens of paragraphs. Your "end of the empire of lies" being a prime example.

I can see a large yatch in Ras Al-Khaimah creek on shiptracker.live but it conveniently has its tracker switched off so I cannot know exactly what model or number it is.

[Steve_uk]

So many stories..are they all lies?  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10754207/Russian-accused-killing-wife-daughter-hanging-Spain-MURDERED-son-says.html

[gringo]

Let's cut to the chase gringo. There is a civil war going on in Ukraine since March 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea. You have no evidence whatsoever that a majority of Ukrainian citizens in Luhansk and Donetsk back the rebels, neither do you have evidence that a majority in those areas wish to leave Ukraine and unite with Russia.

    We can agree that there is a civil war going on in Ukraine since 2014. Civil war being the correct terminology. Your linkage of it with the clear and democratic choice of the Crimean population to rejoin Russia, or as you call it, "annexation by Russia" is a biased, dramatic and over emotional description of events.
     Perhaps you can write a coherent post describing this "annexation by Russia". Sounds brutal and violent, annexing territories. How many lives were lost in this annexation? How many troops did Russia send for this "annexation"? What about the Ukrainian soldiers stationed in Crimea? What did they do? What happened, Steve?
     I can only remember the peaceful transition chosen by the Crimean people. What did I miss?
     The civil war started in 2014 because of events in Maidan, Kiev. The Crimeans desire to rejoin Russia is also because of the coup in 2014. The civil war did not begin because the Russians "annexed Crimea".
The civil war and the peaceful transition of Crimea back into the RF happened because there was a western sponsored coup in 2014 and the civilians of these territories demanded separatism from a government they regard as hostile to them and their culture. The shelling by Ukrainian forces since then only strengthen their claim.
     The evidence that the citizens of Donetsk and Luhansk wish to leave Ukraine is implicit in the recognition of this fact and recognition of the leaders of the breakaway republics in both the Minsk 1 and 2 agreements signed and agreed by the Ukrainian government. Who signed them and what do they recognise if not the above?
      Anyway, tell me all about this dramatic "annexation by Russia" of Crimea. Not a link to some article which won't describe it anyway, cos it never happened. You tell me all about it. It sounds quite dramatic, I hope it lives up to the hype!

[Steve_uk]

    We can agree that there is a civil war going on in Ukraine since 2014. Civil war being the correct terminology. Your linkage of it with the clear and democratic choice of the Crimean population to rejoin Russia, or as you call it, "annexation by Russia" is a biased, dramatic and over emotional description of events.
     Perhaps you can write a coherent post describing this "annexation by Russia". Sounds brutal and violent, annexing territories. How many lives were lost in this annexation? How many troops did Russia send for this "annexation"? What about the Ukrainian soldiers stationed in Crimea? What did they do? What happened, Steve?
     I can only remember the peaceful transition chosen by the Crimean people. What did I miss?
     The civil war started in 2014 because of events in Maidan, Kiev. The Crimeans desire to rejoin Russia is also because of the coup in 2014. The civil war did not begin because the Russians "annexed Crimea".
The civil war and the peaceful transition of Crimea back into the RF happened because there was a western sponsored coup in 2014 and the civilians of these territories demanded separatism from a government they regard as hostile to them and their culture. The shelling by Ukrainian forces since then only strengthen their claim.
     The evidence that the citizens of Donetsk and Luhansk wish to leave Ukraine is implicit in the recognition of this fact and recognition of the leaders of the breakaway republics in both the Minsk 1 and 2 agreements signed and agreed by the Ukrainian government. Who signed them and what do they recognise if not the above?
      Anyway, tell me all about this dramatic "annexation by Russia" of Crimea. Not a link to some article which won't describe it anyway, cos it never happened. You tell me all about it. It sounds quite dramatic, I hope it lives up to the hype!

It was the first invasion of sovereign territory in Eastern Europe since 1945. The tactics used were similar to the Gleiwitz incident of August 31 1939 (do google it gringo.) Angela Merkel thought she had a special relationship with Putin since she grew up in East Germany and could speak to him in Russian. He has duped everyone including her and yourself.

I notice you don't answer the question on where the proof is that a majority of Luhansk and Donetsk residents wish to join Russia. There is none, because a small group of thugs with backing from Mother Russia caused chaos in that region hoping that in so doing it would facilitate the granting of their demands.

[gringo]

It was the first invasion of sovereign territory in Eastern Europe since 1945. The tactics used were similar to the Gleiwitz incident of August 31 1939 (do google it gringo.) Angela Merkel thought she had a special relationship with Putin since she grew up in East Germany and could speak to him in Russian. He has duped everyone including her and yourself.

I notice you don't answer the question on where the proof is that a majority of Luhansk and Donetsk residents wish to join Russia. There is none, because a small group of thugs with backing from Mother Russia caused chaos in that region hoping that in so doing it would facilitate the granting of their demands.

    There was no invasion. I have asked you to describe this invasion. You haven't because there was no invasion or annexation of anything. Gleiwitz has what to do with Crimea exactly, Steve? There is no connection in any way shape or form. False flag attacks by Nazis in Poland? What is the connection to Crimea? There is none, you are just throwing shit around now.
     I noticed that your noticing of my non answering of the desire of Luhansk/Donetsk regions shows you didn't read and comprehend the reply. I did answer it. You have yet to answer anything. Here is the answer again, Steve, copied and pasted below. From the post where you noticed that I didn't answer,

  The evidence that the citizens of Donetsk and Luhansk wish to leave Ukraine is implicit in the recognition of this fact and recognition of the leaders of the breakaway republics in both the Minsk 1 and 2 agreements signed and agreed by the Ukrainian government. Who signed them and what do they recognise if not the above?

[Steve_uk]

    There was no invasion. I have asked you to describe this invasion. You haven't because there was no invasion or annexation of anything. Gleiwitz has what to do with Crimea exactly, Steve? There is no connection in any way shape or form. False flag attacks by Nazis in Poland? What is the connection to Crimea? There is none, you are just throwing shit around now.
     I noticed that your noticing of my non answering of the desire of Luhansk/Donetsk regions shows you didn't read and comprehend the reply. I did answer it. You have yet to answer anything. Here is the answer again, Steve, copied and pasted below. From the post where you noticed that I didn't answer,

  The evidence that the citizens of Donetsk and Luhansk wish to leave Ukraine is implicit in the recognition of this fact and recognition of the leaders of the breakaway republics in both the Minsk 1 and 2 agreements signed and agreed by the Ukrainian government. Who signed them and what do they recognise if not the above?

But as you stated in one of your previous posts: Russia wasn't mentioned. But interfere they continued to do. How do you think the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was brought down?

The Gleiwitz/ Crimea invasion parallel is the lack of national military uniform whilst invading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Russo-Ukrainian_War)

[gringo]

But as you stated in one of your previous posts: Russia wasn't mentioned. But interfere they continued to do. How do you think the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was brought down?

The Gleiwitz/ Crimea invasion parallel is the lack of national military uniform whilst invading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Russo-Ukrainian_War)

   You are all over the place, Steve, and incoherent. Russia did not invade Crimea. Russian and Ukrainian troops were stationed there already. The Crimeans overwhelmingly chose to rejoin Russia, democratically.
    Do you think that the Russians should have ignored the desire of the Crimeans? What would the result have been had Russia refused to recognise the Crimeans desire? Should they have allowed Crimea, to be attacked by the Ukrainian Army, as Donetsk and Luhansk were? What would be the result of this? What exactly do you think should happen with Crimea?
    Why do you not recognise the right of Crimeans to self determination? Would you force them to live under the rule of a government that they see as hostile to them?

[Steve_uk]

   You are all over the place, Steve, and incoherent. Russia did not invade Crimea. Russian and Ukrainian troops were stationed there already. The Crimeans overwhelmingly chose to rejoin Russia, democratically.
    Do you think that the Russians should have ignored the desire of the Crimeans? What would the result have been had Russia refused to recognise the Crimeans desire? Should they have allowed Crimea, to be attacked by the Ukrainian Army, as Donetsk and Luhansk were? What would be the result of this? What exactly do you think should happen with Crimea?
    Why do you not recognise the right of Crimeans to self determination? Would you force them to live under the rule of a government that they see as hostile to them?

The answer is autonomy, not sending in young men to their deaths. https://youtu.be/KEGF9a3x9iE