Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 237354 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #690 on: October 06, 2021, 10:24:AM »
As much as I kind of want this to be true, it sounds like US capability and defence (aggression) spending is being underestimated by you. They are not a country who will accept lagging behind anyone. So if this the current status quo, I don't expect it to stay static for long. The US will get the upper hand (if it doesn't already have it).

More like a fantasy than an underestimation.  :))

They have already ordered 10 new super carriers that will be able to withstand hypersonic missiles.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/us-aircraft-carriers-successful-trial-test-may-blunt-chinas-killer-missile-threat-report/articleshow/85296903.cms?from=mdr

And 8 hypersonic missile programs.

https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-international/8-key-hypersonic-missile-efforts-for-the-us-department-of-defense/138052.article

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/agm-183a/


Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #691 on: October 06, 2021, 05:38:PM »
As much as I kind of want this to be true, it sounds like US capability and defence (aggression) spending is being underestimated by you. They are not a country who will accept lagging behind anyone. So if this the current status quo, I don't expect it to stay static for long. The US will get the upper hand (if it doesn't already have it).
   US are way behind on hypersonic missile and air defence technology, Roch. This is not even debatable. Aircraft carrier groups have been made obsolete with hypersonic missiles. US have not even successfully tested a single hypersonic missile yet. They are nowhere near putting them into service. Russia and China are not standing still while the US catches up, they are forging further ahead. There is nothing to suggest that the US will quickly catch up and no good reason to believe they will. The opposite is in fact the case.
     US/NATO defence spending(a truly Orwellian term) is and has been geared towards the wrong war. Lots of overseas military bases and aircraft carrier groups makes for long and vulnerable supply/logistics chains. Missiles with pinpoint accuracy change these supply chains from vulnerable to indefensible.
     Even if the US did catch up on missile tech, what then? Their aircraft carriers are still obsolete against a peer rival. The cost of sustaining so many overseas bases means that military spending and research is fighting the last centuries wars. We are in a new paradigm and this is understood by US military planners. 
    What did the US do in the aftermath of the Iranians targeting their bases in Iraq after the Soleimani assassination? After threatening the Iranians that they would be obliterated if they harmed a single US soldier followed by 100 Americans injured by Iranian missiles, they pretended that no Americans were harmed and did nothing. Why? Because the Iranians demonstrated that there was nothing that the US could do.
     The US could not stop the missiles. They hid in their bunkers, helpless. Iran could have fired 100 or a 1000 missiles. They could have put powerful warheads on them. What could the US do about that? When you are the aggressor, as the US is, then you face a different set of problems to the defending force.
    Iran have no intention of invading US in order to control their natural wealth. Nor do China, Russia, Venezuela or Syria. They do intend to defend their resources from those whose intention is to steal them. Good air defence and accurate missile technology is all that is required to defend aggression. US/NATO have no answers.
     David posted in response to this that the the US Navy have ordered 10 new super carriers that will be able to withstand hypersonic missiles. Well that sounds good, super carriers  :-[
     He then posted a link to an article so we could "read all about it". I hope you did. I did and it is hilarious in its delusional thinking. Here is a snippet below in red;

  The US Navy's aircraft carrier Gerald R Ford has successfully withstood an impact trial test of underwater detonation of 20 tonnes of explosives, which observers say could effectively reduce the threat posed by China's “carrier killer” missiles.

The US' newest and most advanced nuclear carrier's third and final full ship shock trial was completed on Sunday off the coast of Florida, following the previous such trials on June 18 and July 16, the American navy said in a press release on Monday.
    Service officials described the shock trial testing – where the Navy detonates 40,000 pounds of ordnance in the water near the hull to test both the ship and its systems – as a success, with no major injuries, no fires and no flooding, the US Naval Institute's news portal USNI News reported.

     
     The article further down makes this startling admission;
The trial proved the Ford-class aircraft carriers could withstand some water mines or nearby missile strikes, but did not show their resistance against a direct hit, he said.

     This is laughable. The super carriers are nothing of the sort and the article even admits that they are defenceless against hypersonic anti shipping missiles.
    Attack budgets are more expensive than defence budgets, as is apparent in this current impasse.
    They had no answer to Iran attacking their bases and still have no answers. The answer to carrier killer missiles is not more carriers. How long to build a carrier? How much? How much is an anti carrier missile? How long to produce them?
     Why are the US drawing down their bases in the Middle East? Anything to do with the above? Why don't they quickly catch up if they can? The US/UK NATO war criminals are in check everywhere on the board. They cannot move forward. That is why they didn't respond to Iran. Every US base and ship in the Middle East would be decimated/sunk within hours of hostilities beginning and the US would be powerless to prevent this.
     There are deeper rooted problems in the West that go back decades. Gutting manufacturing industries means we are reliant on other countries and supply chains. Our defence industries are no longer self sufficient. Ships are built elsewhere, we barely produce any of our own steel. Our defence budgets are not spent on defence, but attack. This is why we are so far behind despite the money spent dwarfing that of China, Russia etc.
      Arguably China, Russia, Iran spend way more on defence than us and have for years. Whilst they have been developing and spending money, time and research on actual defence, we have blown our entire budget on attacking defenceless countries, maintaining expensive overseas bases and nothing on actual defence. Despite the disparity in budgets, it is plain to see that Western defence spending is a euphemism for attack spending.
     The current gap in capabilities will not be bridged quickly if at all. It may have appeared suddenly, but it happened over decades whilst the West was otherwise engaged in aggression encouraged by their belief that they were unstoppable. Until they were stopped. Venezuela, Syria, Yemen etc. The US cannot just nip out to get some hypersonics and improved air defence from Walmart. These things are years in research, development and testing before being deployable. Russia and China are not waiting for the US to catch up.
     Western economies will collapse before that happens. When your economy relies on plunder and you suddenly get stopped in your plundering tracks, there will be consequences. The weakness and unsustainability of the western system is being demonstrated in real time.
    It is understandable that many find it unthinkable that the balance of power can have shifted so dramatically and seemingly so rapidly. We are all used to the US/UK band of pirates being able to do as they please with no country being able to prevent them. These changes though happened over decades and only appeared to happen suddenly.
    History is full of paradigm shifting events. Before the 1917 Communist revolution, Lenin, from exile is attributed with the following;
  "There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen"--Vladimir Ilyich Lenin.

     That is where we are now. In the very midst of decades, perhaps centuries, happening.

     


Offline lookout

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #692 on: October 06, 2021, 07:46:PM »
I'd worry more about the yellow race.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #693 on: October 06, 2021, 08:35:PM »
More like a fantasy than an underestimation.  :))

They have already ordered 10 new super carriers that will be able to withstand hypersonic missiles.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/us-aircraft-carriers-successful-trial-test-may-blunt-chinas-killer-missile-threat-report/articleshow/85296903.cms?from=mdr

And 8 hypersonic missile programs.

https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-international/8-key-hypersonic-missile-efforts-for-the-us-department-of-defense/138052.article

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/agm-183a/
   In a race to catch up with China and Russia, the US Air Force (USAF), Army and Navy (USN) are sharing funding, designs and pieces of technology in their effort to develop hypersonic missiles. The development approach relies on progressing several designs in parallel and borrowing features from other military services when useful. In some cases, an aerospace manufacturer working as a prime contractor on a programme, leading several business rivals as subcontractors, will then also simultaneously take a secondary role on another related project, which is in turn led by one of its rivals.

These heady early days of industry and service co-operation will probably not last, but represent the all-hands-on-deck urgency that the US Department of Defense believes is needed.


    The above is the opening two paragraphs to the 8 hypersonic missile programs article that you linked to in order to supposedly counter my analysis.
    You claim that my analysis of the gap in technology is "more like a fantasy than an underestimation"

    The articles that you link then basically confirm everything that I have stated. The only "fantasy" here is the US after belatedly acknowledging that they have been neutralised, now throwing money at research and development in the belief that they will close the gap. Russia and China are fielding developed and tested weapons systems that the US have yet to even imagine.

    "In a race to catch up with China and Russia". Can you read? Your articles admit the opposite of your claims. The US by its own admission is in a race to catch up. Not keep up. Not overtake. Catch up. They admit it themselves.
     It is not me underestimating and fantasising.
     You are very much overestimating and fantasising about yet to be developed, tested or fielded non existent US hypersonic missiles.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 08:38:PM by gringo »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #694 on: October 06, 2021, 11:22:PM »
As much as I kind of want this to be true, it sounds like US capability and defence (aggression) spending is being underestimated by you. They are not a country who will accept lagging behind anyone. So if this the current status quo, I don't expect it to stay static for long. The US will get the upper hand (if it doesn't already have it).
   As much as you want this to be true but are unsure, Roch, it is obvious that your doubt is not shared by the US side. There are countless in depth articles about the new developments, but just using the links that David provided demonstrates quite clearly that the huge gap is acknowledged by all sides including the US. The links also provide ample evidence that the US has no idea what to do about it.
     The question is not whether a huge gap in missile and air defence technology exists between US/NATO and China/Russia. The reality of that situation is recognised by all sides.
     The question is, "What can US/NATO do about this new reality?"
     The answer seems to be that they have no idea.
     Let's examine the plans and ideas to the new reality as laid out in the articles posted by David. In response to the acknowledged threat to Aircraft Carriers from Chinese/Russian carrier killer missiles the US have ordered 10 super carriers. These carriers have been tested against carrier killer missiles by exploding missiles near the carriers. The super carriers have not been tested using direct hits or even the missiles that will be fired at them. Wonder why? This is beyond a joke. The Chinese won't be landing missiles near the carrier hoping to cause turbulence  :-[ They will stick great big fucking holes in it. The US to defend this need to be able to take the missiles out. They can't. Their tests are an admission of defeat. 10 super carriers that are obsolete now will be museum pieces in the time it takes to build them. What sort of a plan is that? No sort of plan. It is an admission that they have no idea how to respond.
      In response to the now fielded and in operation hypersonic missiles of rival powers, the US is basically at the drawing board stage. The articles that David linked say much about intent to catch up and also make clear that they have little idea how to do so. If the US do catch up (they won't) China/Russia will already be fielding next generation. But even if they do, then so what? Russia/China aren't invading other countries. Air defence and missile tech is genuine defence spending. No-one is threatening to invade the US. They would achieve, at best, a strategic stalemate. The US as the aggressors are not happy with stalemate but have no way to achieve dominance again. Everyone else is happy with a stalemate, they aren't attempting to steal and control others resources.
     This inferiority is known and acknowledged by the US, Roch. It is not what you or I would like to believe. It is what the US believes and knows.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #695 on: October 07, 2021, 05:49:AM »
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 10:42:AM by David1819 »

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #696 on: October 07, 2021, 06:01:AM »
  The US to defend this need to be able to take the missiles out. They can't.

Not for long..

https://www.northropgrumman.com/space/counter-hypersonics/#content
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 06:02:AM by David1819 »

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #697 on: October 07, 2021, 10:46:AM »
Wonder why? This is beyond a joke. The Chinese won't be landing missiles near the carrier hoping to cause turbulence  :-[ They will stick great big fucking holes in it. The US to defend this need to be able to take the missiles out. They can't. Their tests are an admission of defeat.

No, it does not. The shock trial involved a 40,000lb explosive. The explosive on an anti-ship missile (hypersonic or not) is typically around 500lb to 1000lb. Only laughable if you are not familiar with maths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-nsfkV14uI

Offline Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #698 on: October 07, 2021, 10:57:AM »
No, it does not. The shock trial involved a 40,000lb explosive. The explosive on an anti-ship missile (hypersonic or not) is typically around 500lb to 1000lb. Only laughable if you are not familiar with maths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-nsfkV14uI

David, you're like Colonel Jessup.. "You can't handle the truth!"

I think you should order a 'code red' mate.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 10:57:AM by Roch »

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #699 on: October 07, 2021, 11:28:AM »
David, you're like Colonel Jessup.. "You can't handle the truth!"

I think you should order a 'code red' mate.

Who?

Offline Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #700 on: October 07, 2021, 12:19:PM »
Who?

Colonel Nathan R. Jessup.  You don't get more stars and stripes than that.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 12:22:PM by Roch »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #701 on: October 07, 2021, 01:01:PM »
No, it does not. The shock trial involved a 40,000lb explosive. The explosive on an anti-ship missile (hypersonic or not) is typically around 500lb to 1000lb. Only laughable if you are not familiar with maths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-nsfkV14uI
   The shock trial didn't involve hitting the ship. This makes it laughable. Read the article you posted, it is fantasy. US/NATO are at least 15/20 years behind the Russians and Chinese. They admit it themselves and their "solutions" show that they are clueless in how to close that gap.
     

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #702 on: October 07, 2021, 01:11:PM »
No, it does not. The shock trial involved a 40,000lb explosive. The explosive on an anti-ship missile (hypersonic or not) is typically around 500lb to 1000lb. Only laughable if you are not familiar with maths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-nsfkV14uI
   Do you imagine that the Chinese and Russians are now having to develop a "new" super carrier killer missile? Do you think that these tests by the US have neutralised the current generation of Carrier Killer missiles?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 01:15:PM by gringo »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #703 on: October 07, 2021, 02:06:PM »
No, it does not. The shock trial involved a 40,000lb explosive. The explosive on an anti-ship missile (hypersonic or not) is typically around 500lb to 1000lb. Only laughable if you are not familiar with maths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-nsfkV14uI
   I don't think the Chinese or the Russians, even the Iranians, are worried by these yet to be built super carriers that don't protect against a direct hit.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #704 on: October 07, 2021, 02:56:PM »
   Do you imagine that the Chinese and Russians are now having to develop a "new" super carrier killer missile? Do you think that these tests by the US have neutralised the current generation of Carrier Killer missiles?

Back in 2005 the RAND think tank suggested that the next generation of carries have energy dissipating armour systems and electric armour. So I'm guessing the new carriers have this? We can only speculate as a lot of this is classified (since I cannot find any details). I also anticipate that these carriers will get upgraded with a system to intercept the hypersonic missiles that consist of directed-energy weapons like high energy lasers, microwaves or rail guns.

There is no such thing as a carrier killer missile. A 15 ton missile is not going to destroy a 100,000 ton ship. The most it can do is put it out of service until it get repaired. You need to strike it below the waterline (numerous times) in order to sink it.

Russia has always had the ability to strike a US carrier since it produced its Oscar II-class submarines. Which is still being upgraded and modernized to this day.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 02:57:PM by David1819 »