Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 365156 times)

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guest29835

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #600 on: May 05, 2021, 04:21:PM »
Your examples are dealing with a separate issue. The argument used by you that people are for free speech until they are offended is over generalising. Which people? All of them?     

Yes, everybody.

Free speech has never existed in reality in any complex society in all history.  It isn't possible.

Online Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #601 on: May 05, 2021, 04:27:PM »
Free speech has never existed in reality in any complex society in all history.

It may be stretching it view this forum as some kind of microcosm of complex society, but overall, ngb1066 has done a decent job in upholding the right of free speech on here.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 04:27:PM by Roch »

guest29835

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #602 on: May 05, 2021, 04:42:PM »
It may be stretching it view this forum as some kind of microcosm of complex society, but overall, ngb1066 has done a decent job in upholding the right of free speech on here.

I'm not suggesting otherwise, but he has also admitted that the liberal approach is more down to the lack of moderators available than any policy of 'free speech'.  And I have just had one of my posts censored.

I maintain my assertion: free speech cannot exist because it is not fundamentally possible except under very contingent conditions, due to human nature. 

Even during the height of English liberalism in the late 19th. century, there were blasphemy and obscenity laws in this country and these were enforced in the criminal courts right into the 20th. century.  We now have 'ideological' blasphemy laws in the various Public Order Acts and other statutes.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #603 on: May 07, 2021, 12:12:AM »
I'm not suggesting otherwise, but he has also admitted that the liberal approach is more down to the lack of moderators available than any policy of 'free speech'.  And I have just had one of my posts censored.

I maintain my assertion: free speech cannot exist because it is not fundamentally possible except under very contingent conditions, due to human nature. 

Even during the height of English liberalism in the late 19th. century, there were blasphemy and obscenity laws in this country and these were enforced in the criminal courts right into the 20th. century.  We now have 'ideological' blasphemy laws in the various Public Order Acts and other statutes.
   As I have said, your examples are a separate issue to the one I raised. The initial post, to which you responded, where I suggested that we needed a "healthy debate" was obviously in the context of the limited "Overton window" terms of debate in our media currently. That was clear from the previous posts.   
     The issue of insults, victims, abusers and gaslighting that you raised is a straw man. Your posts supposedly being censored is also an entirely separate issue and not really a free speech issue. The "censoring" in question being merely the redacting of you calling other posters "sad wankers". If your posts are deemed outside the loosely applied rules of this forum by the owner/mods, it is not a curtailment of your free speech anyway.
     The provider of the space for our discussions, is entitled to set the "rules of the house". Not allowing abusive language to other posters is just the same as anyone not allowing it in their home to other guests. It doesn't stop you saying it, if that is how you want to frame free speech, just not in this house.
     There is a real issue with the lack, or limited terms, of discussion in our media about issues of vital importance. Foreign affairs, in particular, and also the limited terms of political and economic discussion. The Michael Hudson video was an example of how our media and politicians limit the terms of debate.
     Foreign affairs are the most egregious example. Media and politicians all sing from the same sheet. The US/UK populations have zero say on the foreign misadventures conducted via our governments and dissent is not allowed. Nobody in the mainstream media will stray outside of the accepted terms of debate on Syria, Iran, Russia, China, Venezuela and on and on. They all know that their jobs depend on knowing that Assad, the "Mullahs", Putin, Xi (or the chinese generally), Maduro and on and on are evil and that we should save(insert "minority group here) from the (insert "evil dictator" here) doing (insert unspeakably evil deed here). The script is entirely predictable and the obvious lies that it is based on are discussed openly in other media around the world.
      Israeli aggression against Palestinians as well as Syria, Iran and on and on is discussed openly, even in Israeli media, but is extremely limited in "western democracies" where any criticism of the apartheid state is deemed antisemitism and discussion of Israel is limited in politics and media.
      A call for a "healthy debate, which is by definition robust and confrontational at times", is an obvious reference to issues like the above, not a call for calling other posters "sad wankers" in someone's house.   
     

guest29835

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #604 on: May 07, 2021, 12:45:AM »
   As I have said, your examples are a separate issue to the one I raised. The initial post, to which you responded, where I suggested that we needed a "healthy debate" was obviously in the context of the limited "Overton window" terms of debate in our media currently. That was clear from the previous posts.   
     The issue of insults, victims, abusers and gaslighting that you raised is a straw man. Your posts supposedly being censored is also an entirely separate issue and not really a free speech issue. The "censoring" in question being merely the redacting of you calling other posters "sad wankers". If your posts are deemed outside the loosely applied rules of this forum by the owner/mods, it is not a curtailment of your free speech anyway.
     The provider of the space for our discussions, is entitled to set the "rules of the house". Not allowing abusive language to other posters is just the same as anyone not allowing it in their home to other guests. It doesn't stop you saying it, if that is how you want to frame free speech, just not in this house.
     There is a real issue with the lack, or limited terms, of discussion in our media about issues of vital importance. Foreign affairs, in particular, and also the limited terms of political and economic discussion. The Michael Hudson video was an example of how our media and politicians limit the terms of debate.
     Foreign affairs are the most egregious example. Media and politicians all sing from the same sheet. The US/UK populations have zero say on the foreign misadventures conducted via our governments and dissent is not allowed. Nobody in the mainstream media will stray outside of the accepted terms of debate on Syria, Iran, Russia, China, Venezuela and on and on. They all know that their jobs depend on knowing that Assad, the "Mullahs", Putin, Xi (or the chinese generally), Maduro and on and on are evil and that we should save(insert "minority group here) from the (insert "evil dictator" here) doing (insert unspeakably evil deed here). The script is entirely predictable and the obvious lies that it is based on are discussed openly in other media around the world.
      Israeli aggression against Palestinians as well as Syria, Iran and on and on is discussed openly, even in Israeli media, but is extremely limited in "western democracies" where any criticism of the apartheid state is deemed antisemitism and discussion of Israel is limited in politics and media.
      A call for a "healthy debate, which is by definition robust and confrontational at times", is an obvious reference to issues like the above, not a call for calling other posters "sad wankers" in someone's house.   
   

I simply say that free speech can't exist.  I maintain that's true. It's not separate to what you say, even if you want it to be.  Sorry.

I agree that posters should not normally insult each other, but in your comments above you ignore the conduct of the person I addressed the comment to, which is why I mentioned it in the first place.

My point, again, is that I am saying free speech cannot exist.  I am not saying that is a good or bad thing.  I merely say, again, free speech cannot exist.  If somebody wants to 'censor' or redact my posts in 'their house', that is their right, and that proves my point.  This is, after all, a public forum with no prior moderation.  It's not just a private space, like somebody's front sitting room.

guest7363

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #605 on: September 21, 2021, 07:13:PM »
That Novichok nerve agents were invented by the CIA and the attacks are staged. I debunked this in posts #481, #484 and #487.

You will probably now claim all my sources are fake, but that's not going to change anything.
Don’t know if seen this David, it seems they’ve identified the third man in the Salisbury Novichok incident?


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10012831/Ringleader-Salisbury-murder-plot-former-Russian-paratrooper-captain.html

Offline nugnug

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #606 on: September 21, 2021, 09:42:PM »
the bbc have apolgised for there lies about the syrian gass attack how long before they have to apolgise for there coverage of this as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9w0LRLnBkU&t=191s

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #607 on: September 22, 2021, 12:21:AM »
the bbc have apolgised for there lies about the syrian gass attack how long before they have to apolgise for there coverage of this as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9w0LRLnBkU&t=191s
   The direction of travel in world power is obvious to all observers now. Western powers are fighting like rats in a sack and the long overdue demise of the Anglosphere Empire is accelerating. NATO has shown itself as an extension of US Foreign Policy hawks. The so called "alliance" had no say in the Afghan withdrawal despite it being allegedly a NATO mission.
    The Western powers are a generation behind in weapons tech and are no longer the threat they once were. The numerous failed regime change operations and the now discredited sanctions regime are showing the world that the US/UK empire is in rapid decline and a paper tiger. Venezuela, Iran, Hezbollah simply ignoring US threats and issuing their own. US unable to do anything about it. China moving into those markets with investment and win win deals.
     Barring the pumped out 24/7 propaganda against Russia, China, Iran and on.. the rest of the world can see where power is going. The SCO is gaining in strength, powerful alliances are being formed. The Western powers are rapidly declining and unable to stem the inevitable tide.
     The West will be driven out of the Middle East/West Asia. Iran vowed that this will be the revenge for the assassination of General Soleimani. Since then the US have been under increasing pressure and the military presence is being drawn down rapidly.
     Iran's missile attack in the aftermath of the assassination demonstrated explicitly US powerlessness in the region. The US didn't respond because they understood what the price would be for doing so.
     



Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #608 on: September 22, 2021, 05:45:PM »
Don’t know if seen this David, it seems they’ve identified the third man in the Salisbury Novichok incident?


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10012831/Ringleader-Salisbury-murder-plot-former-Russian-paratrooper-captain.html

They are all decorated military personnel, one of them being awarded "Hero of the Russian Federation". There is not a chance in hell any of them get extradited.

guest7363

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #609 on: September 22, 2021, 06:18:PM »
They are all decorated military personnel, one of them being awarded "Hero of the Russian Federation". There is not a chance in hell any of them get extradited.
I would agree but, I’m wrong if I agree and I’m wrong if I disagree 😂😂😂. But I agree anyway 100%

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #610 on: September 22, 2021, 09:09:PM »
   The direction of travel in world power is obvious to all observers now. Western powers are fighting like rats in a sack and the long overdue demise of the Anglosphere Empire is accelerating. NATO has shown itself as an extension of US Foreign Policy hawks. The so called "alliance" had no say in the Afghan withdrawal despite it being allegedly a NATO mission.
    The Western powers are a generation behind in weapons tech and are no longer the threat they once were. The numerous failed regime change operations and the now discredited sanctions regime are showing the world that the US/UK empire is in rapid decline and a paper tiger. Venezuela, Iran, Hezbollah simply ignoring US threats and issuing their own. US unable to do anything about it. China moving into those markets with investment and win win deals.
     Barring the pumped out 24/7 propaganda against Russia, China, Iran and on.. the rest of the world can see where power is going. The SCO is gaining in strength, powerful alliances are being formed. The Western powers are rapidly declining and unable to stem the inevitable tide.
     The West will be driven out of the Middle East/West Asia. Iran vowed that this will be the revenge for the assassination of General Soleimani. Since then the US have been under increasing pressure and the military presence is being drawn down rapidly.
     Iran's missile attack in the aftermath of the assassination demonstrated explicitly US powerlessness in the region. The US didn't respond because they understood what the price would be for doing so.
     
I don't accept this at all. China is a totalitarian state and could fall at any time. Russia is a democracy in name only and its economy is smaller than Italy's and dependent on oil and gas. Iran is a pariah state and sponsor of terrorism. Nobody really knows how the world will shape in the coming decades.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #611 on: September 23, 2021, 02:48:AM »
I don't accept this at all. China is a totalitarian state and could fall at any time. Russia is a democracy in name only and its economy is smaller than Italy's and dependent on oil and gas. Iran is a pariah state and sponsor of terrorism. Nobody really knows how the world will shape in the coming decades.
https://www.cmcmarkets.com/en-gb/trading-guides/largest-economies-in-the-world

    Have a scan through the link above, Steve. It is a list of the top 10 economies with a little commentary on each. A few takeaways from this below;

    1)   Although the US is nominally the No.1 economy by GDP, it is acknowledged that China is No.1 by PPP which is also acknowledged to be widely accepted as the more relevant measure.
    2) China's economy is massively diverse and not reliant on any particular sector.
    3) The UK GDP of just over 3 trillion(in dollars) includes 80% (yes 80%) contribution from the Services sector, mostly tourism, finance and banking.

    Without the financial and banking hub, the UK produces, innovates very little. Such a heavy reliance on tourism, finance and banking is surely less healthy than the Russian economy. Idiotic Western sanctions merely made the Russians diversify their economy.
    The context free repeating of the mantra that Russia's economy is smaller than Italy's is meaningless so here is some context. Russia is the 11th largest economy in the world, Italy is 8th out of around 200.
Russia's economy is larger than all but 3 EU countries (Germany, France, Italy). Doesn't sound so bad now does it?
    All but 7 countries in the world have a smaller economy than Italy. What have you got against the Italians?
    China is now arguably the largest economy in the world and by Purchasing Power Parity it isn't even arguable. They have lifted hundreds of millions from poverty. What makes you honestly believe that the Chinese are unhappy with their leadership? Your notion that China could fall at any time is utter fantasy. Take a look at the civil unrest all around the Western hemisphere. There seems way more division in amongst Western populations.
    Iran is a pariah state only in the minds of the warmongering psychopaths of the Western powers. Their "sponsorship of terrorism" being nothing of the sort. If you were genuinely concerned about countries who sponsor terrorism then Iran wouldn't even be in the top 20.
    Iran have done more to fight ISIS/Al qaeda et al than anyone. This is acknowledged by all. They are the strongest component of the "Axis of Resistance" against Israel and of the Shia Crescent which extends to Lebanon and gives access to the Med and therefore Europe for gas etc. It is these geopolitical considerations that lead to Iran being labelled as a pariah state. You are simply repeating what you are trained to repeat, Steve.
    The Western powers are pretty clearly being forced from the Middle East. It is undeniable and happening now. Power is shifting economically and militarily from the West. 
   
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 03:47:AM by gringo »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #612 on: September 23, 2021, 03:45:AM »
     Russia is a democracy in name only and its economy is smaller than Italy's and dependent on oil and gas.

    You may wonder, and if you don't you ought to, why you have been taught that Russia is dependent on oil and gas but are unaware that the UK economy is reliant on the Service Industry to a far greater extent than Russia is reliant on gas and oil. Why have you not read that so often that you can repeat it like a mantra?
    Sounds to me that the media and politicians need to be talking about our own economies over reliance on one sector of the economy and maybe leave the Russians to worry about their own.
    Ask more questions from the superficial information that you are given, Steve, and see it as the propaganda that it is rather than consuming it as serious news commentary.

   

guest7363

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #613 on: September 23, 2021, 03:52:AM »
     Russia is a democracy in name only and its economy is smaller than Italy's and dependent on oil and gas.

    You may wonder, and if you don't you ought to, why you have been taught that Russia is dependent on oil and gas but are unaware that the UK economy is reliant on the Service Industry to a far greater extent than Russia is reliant on gas and oil. Why have you not read that so often that you can repeat it like a mantra?
    Sounds to me that the media and politicians need to be talking about our own economies over reliance on one sector of the economy and maybe leave the Russians to worry about their own.
    Ask more questions from the superficial information that you are given, Steve, and see it as the propaganda that it is rather than consuming it as serious news commentary.

   
Putin is very clever make no mistake about it. 

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #614 on: September 23, 2021, 09:04:AM »
Putin is very clever make no mistake about it.
  I don't. He, is self evidently streets ahead of the intellectual midgets controlling the UK/US etc.