Russia - worrying?

[gringo]

Back in 2005 the RAND think tank suggested that the next generation of carries have energy dissipating armour systems and electric armour. So I'm guessing the new carriers have this? We can only speculate as a lot of this is classified (since I cannot find any details). I also anticipate that these carriers will get upgraded with a system to intercept the hypersonic missiles that consist of directed-energy weapons like high energy lasers, microwaves or rail guns.

There is no such thing as a carrier killer missile. A 15 ton missile is not going to destroy a 100,000 ton ship. The most it can do is put it out of service until it get repaired. You need to strike it below the waterline (numerous times) in order to sink it.

Russia has always had the ability to strike a US carrier since it produced its Oscar II-class submarines. Which is still being upgraded and modernized to this day.

    Suggesting, guessing, speculating and anticipating are you?
    Upgrades to systems that you anticipate will intercept hypersonic missiles. Lasers, microwaves and rail guns you anticipate but can't find any details. The Chinese and Russians must be shitting it.
    You have at least acknowledged the huge gap now and accepted that it is fact and not idle speculation from me. You're getting there, David.
     After denial and anger you are now at stage 3, bargaining. Only two to go.

[David1819]

    Suggesting, guessing, speculating and anticipating are you?
    Upgrades to systems that you anticipate will intercept hypersonic missiles. Lasers, microwaves and rail guns you anticipate but can't find any details. The Chinese and Russians must be shitting it.
    You have at least acknowledged the huge gap now and accepted that it is fact and not idle speculation from me. You're getting there, David.
     After denial and anger you are now at stage 3, bargaining. Only two to go.

I cannot find any details on the armour of the new carrier. And why would they release such details?

More details on laser shields to counter HS missiles can be found below.

https://breakingdefense.com/2020/02/army-ramps-up-funding-for-laser-shield-hypersonic-sword/

Why shouldn't I anticipate that lasers or some other kind of directed-energy weapon be used? I cannot imagine a kinetic interception method will be viable.

Denial and anger? lol This has no bearings on me. Its just a subject I am interested in.

[David1819]

Secret group of US military trainers has been in Taiwan for at least a year

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/taiwan-us-military-trainers-china

[David1819]

As much as I kind of want this to be true, it sounds like US capability and defence (aggression) spending is being underestimated by you. They are not a country who will accept lagging behind anyone. So if this the current status quo, I don't expect it to stay static for long. The US will get the upper hand (if it doesn't already have it).

US Army fields prototype launchers for ‘Dark Eagle’ hypersonic missile

https://www.stripes.com/branches/army/2021-10-08/hypersonic-missile-army-dark-eagle-3168894.html

Things are moving rather quickly.... 

[Steve_uk]

Secret group of US military trainers has been in Taiwan for at least a year

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/taiwan-us-military-trainers-china

Everyone knows what's coming. https://swarajyamag.com/analysis/taiwanese-defence-minister-chiu-kuo-cheng-says-china-will-be-able-to-launch-a-full-scale-invasion-of-taiwan-by-2025

[David1819]

Everyone knows what's coming. https://swarajyamag.com/analysis/taiwanese-defence-minister-chiu-kuo-cheng-says-china-will-be-able-to-launch-a-full-scale-invasion-of-taiwan-by-2025

I would be very surprised if they try. Attacking and annexing a weaker and democratic country that's no threat to the aggressor and against the will of the population? If they succeed the economic and possible military repercussions would be huge.

Winnie the Pooh would have to be mad to pull the trigger.

[Steve_uk]

I would be very surprised if they try. Attacking and annexing a weaker democratic country that's no threat to the aggressor and against the will of the population? If they succeed the economic and possible military repercussions would be huge.

Winnie the Pooh would have to be mad to pull the trigger.

It's a beacon of democracy and a thorn in the People's Republic of China's side. All totalitarian regimes are inherently insecure and have to silence the populace through terror and propaganda. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/china-s-xi-vows-reunification-with-taiwan-but-holds-off-threatening-force/ar-AAPiqf0?ocid=msedgntp

[gringo]

   Meanwhile, back in the real world.
   Taiwan is a province of China, it is not a country. The UK and US governments do not recognise Taiwan as a country. It has no seat at the UN because it isn't a country, it is a province of China. Western interference in China will end badly for the aggressors.
     It is obvious that Steve and David support any aggression by the West and this exposes the lack of consistency in their "thinking". I placed thinking in inverted commas because really it is just mindlessly repeating the talking points that they have been trained to repeat. Pavlov's dogs.
     Have you bothered to wonder whether the Taiwanese themselves want full independence? Have you any basis for your support for Taiwanese independence? No, you haven't. It is way more complicated than your simple black and white view.
     It should be viewed in exactly the same way as you would view China or Russia fomenting rebellion and arming agitators and separatists in Scotland, Texas, Yorkshire. That some don't see it this way shows their own racist colonial mindset.
   
     The latest Freedom of Navigation op by the Western powers in the South China Sea gives clues to the likelihood of success if things get hot.
     The USS Connecticut, a nuclear powered submarine taking part in the above exercise is currently limping back to port in Guam after sustaining damage after hitting ? 11 injured sailors, sailing back on the surface which is itself demonstrative that the damage is bad. After the collisions in 2017, USS Fitzgerald and USS John McCain killing 17 sailors it seems the US has learnt nothing.
     All that these "Freedom of Navigation" exercises have demonstrated is that countries are free to navigate international waters but that the US aren't very good at getting crews that can navigate.
    Two damaged warships, one damaged submarine, 17 dead sailors, dozens injured in four years without a shot fired in anger yet. Below is a decent essay on the state of the US Navy and talking about the above two incidents.

     https://features.propublica.org/navy-accidents/us-navy-crashes-japan-cause-mccain/
   
    Sounds to me like China just need a fleet of barges and oil tankers to defeat US idiocy.
     

[Steve_uk]

   Meanwhile, back in the real world.
   Taiwan is a province of China, it is not a country. The UK and US governments do not recognise Taiwan as a country. It has no seat at the UN because it isn't a country, it is a province of China. Western interference in China will end badly for the aggressors.
     It is obvious that Steve and David support any aggression by the West and this exposes the lack of consistency in their "thinking". I placed thinking in inverted commas because really it is just mindlessly repeating the talking points that they have been trained to repeat. Pavlov's dogs.
     Have you bothered to wonder whether the Taiwanese themselves want full independence? Have you any basis for your support for Taiwanese independence? No, you haven't. It is way more complicated than your simple black and white view.
     It should be viewed in exactly the same way as you would view China or Russia fomenting rebellion and arming agitators and separatists in Scotland, Texas, Yorkshire. That some don't see it this way shows their own racist colonial mindset.
   
     The latest Freedom of Navigation op by the Western powers in the South China Sea gives clues to the likelihood of success if things get hot.
     The USS Connecticut, a nuclear powered submarine taking part in the above exercise is currently limping back to port in Guam after sustaining damage after hitting ? 11 injured sailors, sailing back on the surface which is itself demonstrative that the damage is bad. After the collisions in 2017, USS Fitzgerald and USS John McCain killing 17 sailors it seems the US has learnt nothing.
     All that these "Freedom of Navigation" exercises have demonstrated is that countries are free to navigate international waters but that the US aren't very good at getting crews that can navigate.
    Two damaged warships, one damaged submarine, 17 dead sailors, dozens injured in four years without a shot fired in anger yet. Below is a decent essay on the state of the US Navy and talking about the above two incidents.

     https://features.propublica.org/navy-accidents/us-navy-crashes-japan-cause-mccain/
   
    Sounds to me like China just need a fleet of barges and oil tankers to defeat US idiocy.
   

I can't speak for David of course, but I am no Pavlov dog.

Have you considered Articles 2 and 3 of the Shimonoseki Treaty of 17 April 1895..

Articles 2 & 3: China cedes to Japan in perpetuity and full sovereignty of the Pescadores group, Formosa (Taiwan) and the eastern portion of the bay of Liaodong Peninsula (Dalian) together with all fortifications, arsenals, and public property.

"China has been preparing for war with Taiwan for 30 years.." https://youtu.be/kA2KaEKs1LA

[David1819]

   Meanwhile, back in the real world.
   Taiwan is a province of China, it is not a country.
   

How do you define country?

If you define country as an entity that meets the following criteria

• A permanent population
• A defined territory
• The capacity to enter into relations with the other states
• Having its own flag
• Having its own currency
• Having its own organized economy
• Having its own military
• Having its own passport

Then Taiwan is a country.

If you define country as an entity that meets the following criteria

• Having official member status at the UN
• Having an official team that competes in the Olympics

Then Taiwan is not a country 

   The UK and US governments do not recognise Taiwan as a country.     

Are you not familiar with informal diplomacy? There are de facto British and American embassies in Taiwan and there are de facto Taiwanese embassies in London and Washington.

        Have you bothered to wonder whether the Taiwanese themselves want full independence? Have you any basis for your support for Taiwanese independence? No, you haven't.   

I have interacted with dozens of Taiwanese on the following forum lately.

https://www.reddit.com/r/taiwan/

See for yourself what they think.

[David1819]

[gringo]

Are you not familiar with informal diplomacy? There are de facto British and American embassies in Taiwan and there are de facto Taiwanese embassies in London and Washington.

      Unlike you, yes I am familiar with diplomacy. The "de facto British and American embassies in Taiwan" are not embassies. This is because of the UK/US One China policy. Diplomatic missions, representative offices are what you have, if say for instance, you are not a country. Countries have embassies. If your own government, along with the rest of the world, believes Taiwan to be a part of China then your beliefs are without foundation or support.
      Do you not think it odd that your own government is acting against its own policy?
      David's snap opinion poll on Reddit, in order to gauge the feeling in Taiwan is just bizarre. Reddit? Really? Support for full independence is in single digits, slightly higher than support for full integration. The status quo is what most Taiwanese prefer. China is fine with this as economic ties and reliance become stronger making unification more likely in future. It is the West that is in a hurry which explains their doomed to fail aggressive posturing and information war against China.
   
I can't speak for David of course, but I am no Pavlov dog.

Have you considered Articles 2 and 3 of the Shimonoseki Treaty of 17 April 1895..

Articles 2 & 3: China cedes to Japan in perpetuity and full sovereignty of the Pescadores group, Formosa (Taiwan) and the eastern portion of the bay of Liaodong Peninsula (Dalian) together with all fortifications, arsenals, and public property.

    You're no Pavlov's dog you say, and then repeat an irrelevant talking point on command.
    Have you considered that there have been two world wars and the Chinese Civil War since the 1895 treaty? Are you arguing that Taiwan belongs to Japan? What is your point?
    If you are saying that the 1895 treaty is the relevant deciding factor, then do you support Japanese annexation of Taiwan?
 

[nugnug]

i can see why he invaded crimea look at these bastards https://off-guardian.org/2021/10/09/best-of-offg-the-guardians-latest-attempts-at-pr-for-the-ukraine-nazis/

[David1819]

Are you not familiar with informal diplomacy? There are de facto British and American embassies in Taiwan and there are de facto Taiwanese embassies in London and Washington.

      Unlike you, yes I am familiar with diplomacy. The "de facto British and American embassies in Taiwan" are not embassies. This is because of the UK/US One China policy. Diplomatic missions, representative offices are what you have, if say for instance, you are not a country. Countries have embassies. If your own government, along with the rest of the world, believes Taiwan to be a part of China then your beliefs are without foundation or support.
      Do you not think it odd that your own government is acting against its own policy?
      David's snap opinion poll on Reddit, in order to gauge the feeling in Taiwan is just bizarre. Reddit? Really? Support for full independence is in single digits, slightly higher than support for full integration. The status quo is what most Taiwanese prefer. China is fine with this as economic ties and reliance become stronger making unification more likely in future. It is the West that is in a hurry which explains their doomed to fail aggressive posturing and information war against China.
   
I can't speak for David of course, but I am no Pavlov dog.

Have you considered Articles 2 and 3 of the Shimonoseki Treaty of 17 April 1895..

Articles 2 & 3: China cedes to Japan in perpetuity and full sovereignty of the Pescadores group, Formosa (Taiwan) and the eastern portion of the bay of Liaodong Peninsula (Dalian) together with all fortifications, arsenals, and public property.

    You're no Pavlov's dog you say, and then repeat an irrelevant talking point on command.
    Have you considered that there have been two world wars and the Chinese Civil War since the 1895 treaty? Are you arguing that Taiwan belongs to Japan? What is your point?
    If you are saying that the 1895 treaty is the relevant deciding factor, then do you support Japanese annexation of Taiwan?

Taiwan already has de facto independence. As the saying goes If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

My point is I don't support a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. The people of the ROC have a right to self determination whatever that may be.

PS: If I'm a dog then you are a potato. 

[gringo]

Taiwan already has de facto independence. As the saying goes If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

My point is I don't support a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. The people of the ROC have a right to self determination whatever that may be.

PS: If I'm a dog then you are a potato. 

    Then why are you supporting US/UK provocations (arming and fomenting rebels to provoke China) which will almost certainly provoke the invasion that you oppose?