The main prosecution forensic case

[Patti]

Venzes says the marks on his left arm was probably done with the muzzle end of the rifle not the butt end....which might indicate no silencer was on the rifle at that point.

Sorry but one of the raid team admit to moving the stools as they more or less blocked one of the doorways...Cook heard of all of this later on, there is no need for him to lie in his statement, why would he?

It would have been better if all the raid team made statements immediately and not one month later when many factors may have been missed. 

Thank you for that Caroline that confirms what I said.  About the sugar though I have never seen a report saying that one of the raid team knocked this over.  It appears that Cook and AE was aware that one of them did. How they were made aware of it, I have no idea....

[scipio_usmc]

Who would you trust to assess the state of a crime scene, crime scene officers who are used to paying attention to detail or members of a raid team who are trained to focus on a target?

Depends on the issue.  In the US all cops are trained to use guns and crime scene officers are trained about the finer aspects.

In the UK most cops don't use guns and thus are at a disadvantage when it comes to some firearms related issues.  Hopefully now they are trianed much more about every aspect.

The raid team noticed the struggle in the kitchen as well as the lack of evidence on Sheila that should be present had she taken part in a struggle and shot people.  The coroner and crime scene officers should have noticed these same things since the raid team did. 

The coroner and crime scene officers seemed to ignore it. Vanezis later blamed this on not being shown the seen right away but none of his gun related claims were too bright.  He stupidly suggested possibly someone stabbed Nevill with the barrel of the rifle and that this caused the marks.  He said such at a point in time when he knew the moderator had been attached. Apart from the notion of being stabbed with the rifle barrel being stupid the moderator being attached should have told him it was a stupid suggestion.  If he knew anything about the use of guns he would know people are hit with the butt of the rifle and the corner of the butt would be able to make marks like the gouges to Nevill's arms.  He figured out the butt was used to bash Nevill's head in so you would think he would be able to figure out Nevill would have tried defending himself from such blows with his arm thus his arm getting gouged.

The lab helped save the case, otherwise a crappy job was done which is why the Dickinson investigation occurred.  They wanted to try to find out what went wrong so they could try to prevent the same bad policing in the future.

[Caroline]

Thank you for that Caroline that confirms what I said.  About the sugar though I have never seen a report saying that one of the raid team knocked this over.  It appears that Cook and AE was aware that one of them did. How they were made aware of it, I have no idea....

It appears as though the sugar was already on the floor when they entered. But yes, they did move two stools, they also opened all external doors and one window (which they later secured).

[scipio_usmc]

Thank you for that Caroline that confirms what I said.  About the sugar though I have never seen a report saying that one of the raid team knocked this over.  It appears that Cook and AE was aware that one of them did. How they were made aware of it, I have no idea....

The rumor that the raid team knocked it over was told to Cook but there is nothing to suggest the claim is actually true.

I never saw any claim that a light over the sink was broken and that the glass was thus found in the sink.

[Patti]

Depends on the issue.  In the US all cops are trained to use guns and crime scene officers are trained about the finer aspects.

In the UK most cops don't use guns and thus are at a disadvantage when it comes to some firearms related issues.  Hopefully now they are trianed much more about every aspect.

The raid team noticed the struggle in the kitchen as well as the lack of evidence on Sheila that should be present had she taken part in a struggle and shot people.  The coroner and crime scene officers should have noticed these same things since the raid team did. 

The coroner and crime scene officers seemed to ignore it. Vanezis later blamed this on not being shown the seen right away but none of his gun related claims were too bright.  He stupidly suggested possibly someone stabbed Nevill with the barrel of the rifle and that this caused the marks.  He said such at a point in time when he knew the moderator had been attached. Apart from the notion of being stabbed with the rifle barrel being stupid the moderator being attached should have told him it was a stupid suggestion.  If he knew anything about the use of guns he would know people are hit with the butt of the rifle and the corner of the butt would be able to make marks like the gouges to Nevill's arms.  He figured out the butt was used to bash Nevill's head in so you would think he would be able to figure out Nevill would have tried defending himself from such blows with his arm thus his arm getting gouged.

The lab helped save the case, otherwise a crappy job was done which is why the Dickinson investigation occurred.  They wanted to try to find out what went wrong so they could try to prevent the same bad policing in the future.

Sorry Skip but the raid team did not notice that Sheila was clean and that it was a murder, they believed for weeks that it was suicide/murder....Not one of them put their hands up to say otherwise at the time. 

[Patti]

It appears as though the sugar was already on the floor when they entered. But yes, they did move two stools, they also opened all external doors and one window (which they later secured).

They opened the kitchen window too to let the smell out.

I've never been able to see any sugar on the floor, not even sure if it was white or brown.  The fact is that it has been said that if Sheila was had been in the kitchen, sugar would have got on her feet.  I doubt it would have stayed on her feet, it would have fell off when walking...That's one experiment we can all do...

[Caroline]

Sorry Skip but the raid team did not notice that Sheila was clean and that it was a murder, they believed for weeks that it was suicide/murder....Not one of them put their hands up to say otherwise at the time. 

Woodcock certainly admits to being suspicious.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4207.msg172557.html#msg172557

[scipio_usmc]

Sorry Skip but the raid team did not notice that Sheila was clean and that it was a murder, they believed for weeks that it was suicide/murder....Not one of them put their hands up to say otherwise at the time. 

There are documents that discuss the firearms team saying her clean condition didn't fit with what she had supposedly done and this was one of the things Stan Jones ended up raising.

By the way the broken light was not over the kitchen sink:

[Patti]

There are documents that discuss the firearms team saying her clean condition didn't fit with what she had supposedly done and this was one of the things Stan Jones ended up raising.

By the way the broken light was not over the kitchen sink:

Ower! Well they are two lights I do remember discussing this with Hartley and we came to the conclusion that it was the light over the sink...But there you go...Who made that statement Sckip?  Because I have said many times that there is not much in the way of glass on the floor near the sink...There is two lights though.  Hartley will confirm that...

[guest2181]

Ower! Well they are two lights I do remember discussing this with Hartley and we came to the conclusion that it was the light over the sink...But there you go...Who made that statement Sckip?  Because I have said many times that there is not much in the way of glass on the floor near the sink...There is two lights though.  Hartley will confirm that...

I will.

[guest2181]

Ower! Well they are two lights I do remember discussing this with Hartley and we came to the conclusion that it was the light over the sink...But there you go...Who made that statement Sckip?  Because I have said many times that there is not much in the way of glass on the floor near the sink...There is two lights though.  Hartley will confirm that...

I haven't checked, but my guess is that it is taken from the DICKINSON REPORT?   

[Patti]

I haven't checked, but my guess is that it is taken from the DICKINSON REPORT?   

So then we all naturally assume that a light is in the center of a room ceiling, but in this case there were two...I'm not sure which one was smashed...I seem to think it was the one above the sink, but cannot remember where I got that from.  I must have read it somewhere! Is the Dickinson report trustworthy? I'd like a more direct source if there is one. 

[guest2181]

So then we all naturally assume that a light is in the center of a room ceiling, but in this case there were two...I'm not sure which one was smashed...I seem to think it was the one above the sink, but cannot remember where I got that from.  I must have read it somewhere! Is the Dickinson report trustworthy? I'd like a more direct source if there is one. 

It is:

[guest2181]

There are two light fixtures evenly spaced.

I think Patti and I concluded that it was the one closest to the sink that was broken, although it is not 'over' the sink. It could be described as being in the centre of the area which was not occupied by the dining table.

The Dickinson Report has just worded it incorrectly, that is my assumption anyway.

[Patti]

There are two light fixtures evenly spaced.

I think Patti and I concluded that it was the one closest to the sink that was broken, although it is not 'over' the sink. It could be described as being in the centre of the area which was not occupied by the dining table.

The Dickinson Report has just worded it incorrectly, that is my assumption anyway.

Thanks Hartley.  Just waded through that myself to find it, but you beat me to it.