The main prosecution forensic case

[Alias]

I do Alias.  Its easy to say what the rumor might be, but Cook did say that he learnt latter that the raid team had moved the chairs and knocked the sugar over.  One of the raid team members confirm this is one of their statements. Also AE confirms this in her 1901 COLP statement.

I have always said that the only struggle that could have occurred would have been a minor one, you can tell that with the blood stains on the floor...there was no ferocious struggle in the kitchen at all in my opinion...NB would not have been able to fought back in the way it is sometimes expressed by others.

If you look at the floor near the sink there is no scuff marks or smeared blood to confirm a fight took place....

Sensible post, Patti. 

A lot has been made of the sugar on the floor, but Cook says it was limited to a very small area. Do you know where - I can´t see it in photos?

[Caroline]

Potential for crime scene officers who were accused of misreading the scene to plant evidence that would  establish they were indeed wrong and thus deposit even more egg on their faces?

That is like saying I would try to manufacture evidence to prove I am wrong about something.  Why on Earth would I do that?  Someone manufacturers evidence to pretend they were right not to help establish they were wrong.

Well, that depends who they thought was responsible. We know Stan Jones thought Jeremy was guilty and not Sheila. He didn't seem interested in toeing the official line - I'm sure there were others who felt the same.

[scipio_usmc]

I do Alias.  Its easy to say what the rumor might be, but Cook did say that he learnt latter that the raid team had moved the chairs and knocked the sugar over.  One of the raid team members confirm this is one of their statements. Also AE confirms this in her 1901 COLP statement.

I have always said that the only struggle that could have occurred would have been a minor one, you can tell that with the blood stains on the floor...there was no ferocious struggle in the kitchen at all in my opinion...NB would not have been able to fought back in the way it is sometimes expressed by others.

If you look at the floor near the sink there is no scuff marks or smeared blood to confirm a fight took place....

The things knocked over, the scratches to the mantle and the broken lampshade tell the tale of arguing over control of the rifle.  Nevill's arm having so many gouges and his watch being torn off tell the tall that he was blocking the blows from the butt of the rifle with his arm.  His head wasn't bashed in for nothing, it was bashed in so that the killer could knock him out and then have the opportunity to reload in peace.

Cook wasn't there Cook's claim he heard innuendo that the scene was mess was made by the raid team is not evidence that it actually was.  It at most is evidence he heard innuendo.  The raid team members all dispute such a claim so it obviously didn't come from them and they are the only ones who could actually know if they did the damage or not.  That is why the Appeal Court said it was hearsay and not even admissible.

[lookout]

ALL three adults had gouge marks on their forearms. Sheila would have applied them to her parents,but who made the marks on Sheila ? They were only small,so it wasn't her father.

[scipio_usmc]

Well, that depends who they thought was responsible. We know Stan Jones thought Jeremy was guilty and not Sheila. He didn't seem interested in toeing the official line - I'm sure there were others who felt the same.

Stan Jones wasn't a crime scene officer.  The Crime scene officers were Hammersley, Cook and Davidson. This particular point deals with the reason why these 3 would not want to fake evidence to frame Jeremy because it would end up embarrassing them as opposed to making them look good.

 

[scipio_usmc]

ALL three adults had gouge marks on their forearms. Sheila would have applied them to her parents,but who made the marks on Sheila ? They were only small,so it wasn't her father.

Only Nevill had gouge marks.

[Alias]

ALL three adults had gouge marks on their forearms. Sheila would have applied them to her parents,but who made the marks on Sheila ? They were only small,so it wasn't her father.

This is my personal belief, but Sheila has no gouge marks on her arms. They are blood streams as far as I can see.

BTW, the raid team could have been ashamed that they hurled through the crime scene in such a panic that they toppled things over, and would be reluctant to admit it.

[Patti]

Sensible post, Patti. 

A lot has been made of the sugar on the floor, but Cook says it was limited to a very small area. Do you know where - I can´t see it in photos?

I think it was confined under the table....which makes me also believe that the table may have been moved after the sugar had spilled, otherwise the sugar would have been found away from the table.

Its difficult to see any sugar on the floor and we do not have a clear view under the table. 

The whole area looks like a bomb had hit it, stuff all over the place. 

There must have been some struggle near the sink, for NB's watch was found under the mat. There are two ceiling lights in the kitchen, the one that was broken was the one above the where the sink is.. I think you can see it in one of the photo's after the murders, when AE lived there. 

[scipio_usmc]

This is my personal belief, but Sheila has no gouge marks on her arms. They are blood streams as far as I can see.

BTW, the raid team could have been ashamed that they hurled through the crime scene in such a panic that they toppled things over, and would be reluctant to admit it.

I never heard of people with guns barreling through chairs and knocking things over.  Running into a chair not only hurts it inhibits you from being able to defend yourself if you need to shoot someone who has a gun and is trying to shoot you. 

At any rate if they decided not to tell anyone they did it because it embarrassed them then they would not be the source of the rumor that they knocked things over.     

[Patti]

The things knocked over, the scratches to the mantle and the broken lampshade tell the tale of arguing over control of the rifle.  Nevill's arm having so many gouges and his watch being torn off tell the tall that he was blocking the blows from the butt of the rifle with his arm.  His head wasn't bashed in for nothing, it was bashed in so that the killer could knock him out and then have the opportunity to reload in peace.

Cook wasn't there Cook's claim he heard innuendo that the scene was mess was made by the raid team is not evidence that it actually was.  It at most is evidence he heard innuendo.  The raid team members all dispute such a claim so it obviously didn't come from them and they are the only ones who could actually know if they did the damage or not.  That is why the Appeal Court said it was hearsay and not even admissible.

Venzes says the marks on his left arm was probably done with the muzzle end of the rifle not the butt end....which might indicate no silencer was on the rifle at that point.

Sorry but one of the raid team admit to moving the stools as they more or less blocked one of the doorways...Cook heard of all of this later on, there is no need for him to lie in his statement, why would he?

It would have been better if all the raid team made statements immediately and not one month later when many factors may have been missed. 

[tyler]

This is my personal belief, but Sheila has no gouge marks on her arms. They are blood streams as far as I can see.

BTW, the raid team could have been ashamed that they hurled through the crime scene in such a panic that they toppled things over, and would be reluctant to admit it.

I have just had another read of some of the raid team statements. With regards to Sheila,it is interesting that more than one raid team member remarks about her having blood leaking from her mouth. And of course,'leaking' is the present tense. Also Woodcock describes Sheila's head as being raised,against the bedside cabinet.That is interesting since (was it Delgado and Collins)? queried afterwards that the crime scene photos did not depict Sheila as being in the same position as they had first seen her.With one of them not even recalling a rifle on or near her body. All very odd.

[Alias]

Who would you trust to assess the state of a crime scene, crime scene officers who are used to paying attention to detail or members of a raid team who are trained to focus on a target?

[Jane]

I have just had another read of some of the raid team statements. With regards to Sheila,it is interesting that more than one raid team member remarks about her having blood leaking from her mouth. And of course,'leaking' is the present tense. Also Woodcock describes Sheila's head as being raised,against the bedside cabinet.That is interesting since (was it Delgado and Collins)? queried afterwards that the crime scene photos did not depict Sheila as being in the same position as they had first seen her.With one of them not even recalling a rifle on or near her body. All very odd.

I believe the point was made that it was WET blood which I guess would b e different from the dried blood my mother used to feed to her Hyderanga's

[Alias]

I have just had another read of some of the raid team statements. With regards to Sheila,it is interesting that more than one raid team member remarks about her having blood leaking from her mouth. And of course,'leaking' is the present tense. Also Woodcock describes Sheila's head as being raised,against the bedside cabinet.That is interesting since (was it Delgado and Collins)? queried afterwards that the crime scene photos did not depict Sheila as being in the same position as they had first seen her.With one of them not even recalling a rifle on or near her body. All very odd.

Well, yes.

[Caroline]

I do Alias.  Its easy to say what the rumor might be, but Cook did say that he learnt latter that the raid team had moved the chairs and knocked the sugar over.  One of the raid team members confirm this is one of their statements. Also AE confirms this in her 1901 COLP statement.

I have always said that the only struggle that could have occurred would have been a minor one, you can tell that with the blood stains on the floor...there was no ferocious struggle in the kitchen at all in my opinion...NB would not have been able to fought back in the way it is sometimes expressed by others.

If you look at the floor near the sink there is no scuff marks or smeared blood to confirm a fight took place....

They did indeed say that they moved two stools so that they could get through. No one (however) states they knocked over the sugar; in fact Woodcock states he saw the sugar when he entered the kitchen after breaking down the door.