The main prosecution forensic case

[Steve_uk]

I don't think he is a genius by any stretch of the imagination. He has a gift of memory and his training as a lawyer.

But he has made me think about the case in a different way,namely not the forensic evidence which incriminates Jeremy,but the lack of forensic evidence which exculpates Sheila.

[Mr. Gee]

But he has made me think about the case in a different way,namely not the forensic evidence which incriminates Jeremy,but the lack of forensic evidence which exculpates Sheila.

Yes he has made some good points.

[Jane]

There's a lesson for all of us there to take books with a pinch of salt. I assume that the incident with the electrician is bona fide though?

I think it is Steve, but Scorpio, our resident macho man, paints a rather different picture of it than the accepted one. He suggests that Sheila was scared when he walked in and reacted as she may have done with a burglar. The electrician, according to him, reacted like a wimp and headed for his car. Hmm. Not sure

[Alias]

I just think Sheila was too far gone,when you consider how she was perceived by the nurse at the twins' party, echoed by the Tiptree shopkeeper,her listlessness around the Farm and her fear of strangers. It was her very condition which gave Jeremy the idea of leading her to her death like a lamb to the slaughter,putting her out of her misery as he was similarly despatching Nevill and June,yet if we follow his reasoning the justification falls down spectacularly with the cold-blooded murder of the twins, who would I'm sure under Colin's tutelage become model citizens, and who had all their lives ahead of them.

Personally I don´t think it happened that way - even if I consider Jeremy having done it.

[David1819]

Scipio I salute you again for this thread,which must surely have converted even more members to the guilty camp. I was wondering if you could answer a few loose ends,such as the claim by Andrew Hunter that this may have been a two-gun crime,which would have implications about the necessity to reload,and also the allegation that Nevill slept with a gun under the bed(I'm supposing that the element of surprise would have rendered this useless to him if Jeremy slugged him first). Instead of marching his father downstairs couldn't he just have shot them both in situ and returned the telephone to the bedroom post-murders,or do you believe the march downstairs was part of the original plan?

I don't see Sheila in any kind of panic that last evening,having exhausted herself the previous weekend with the two parties and reaching a modus vivendi with herself after the monastery incident. I see her as being swept along with the tide of events occurring externally,which might be a fitting epitaph for her life experiences in general,a young vulnerable girl led to her death by a man who saw no other escape from the confinement which his family circumstances had inflicted upon him and which is one reason why he has taken to prison life so placidly as he approaches the milestone of thirty years' incarceration.

Be very careful when reading Scipio's posts. He claims allot of the time that he goes by proven facts and information when its just evidenced pieced together with his assumptions and speculations. Much of what he claims as factual does not add up under close scrutiny. For example claiming I ignored the proof June was shot six times in a row, I then asked him elaborate on this alleged 'proof' and he failed to do so.

When questioned, disproven or disagreed with he resorts to craftily putting together very long posts with several paragraphs that insult the reader and goes into multiple topics combined with more insults and assumptions to put you off engaging or challenging him. He more or less manipulates and demoralises people until they either ignore or agree with him.

Anyone with actual honest information with a sound mind would not resort to such a method of communicating with people. I stopped taking him seriously long ago

[guest154]

Be very careful when reading Scipio's posts. He claims allot of the time that he goes by proven facts and information when its just evidenced pieced together with his assumptions and speculations. Much of what he claims as factual does not add up under close scrutiny. For example claiming I ignored the proof June was shot six times in a row, I then asked him elaborate on this alleged 'proof' and he failed to do so.

He certainly did answer your post. Perhaps you've missed it? The logic seems hard to argue against.

The serious damage is the whole point.  Because of the serious damage she already would have been dead by the time the killer returned upstairs following the kitchen altercation.  Only the shot between her eyes could have been fired at that point. 

4 of June's wounds were definitely inflicted while she was in bed.  One of these is the wound severely damaged her skull.

Entrance wounds;

1) Above right ear/ inflicted while lying in bed/ severe head damage would kill her rapidly
2) Lower right Neck / inflicted while sitting in bed based on the exit wound/ severity not described
3) right forearm/ inflicted while lying in bed
4) right knee/ inflicted while lying in bed

5) right upper chest/ inflicted while sitting, getting up or virtually upright/ caused severe bleeding still alive when inflicted
6) right lower chest / inflicted while sitting, getting up or virtually upright/ caused severe bleeding still alive while inflicted

7) Between the eyes/ inflicting while lying on the floor based on back spatter on door

Note how 6 wounds were all the the right side of her body the only bullet that wasn't is the one that was between her eyes.  That they were all to the right supports the killer firing the 6 shots from relatively the same position.  That is one hint they were fired in succession.  It is possible for all 6 to have been delivered while she was in bed. If she wasn't in bed when 5 and 6 were fired then she was either getting out of bed or practically standing upright. 

The severity of the head wound she suffered in bed means that by the time the events in the kitchen finished and the killer reloaded and came back upstairs she would have been lying on the floor.  With her body lying on the floor wounds 5 and 6 can't have been delivered the wound tracts are only able to fit someone sitting in bed, getting up out of bed or standing virtually upright.  Moreover, wounds 5 and 6 resulted in a lot of blood filling the chest.    Had bullets 5, 6 and 7 been delivered together then 5 and 6 would not have caused so much blood to fill the chest. 

It is obvious based on everything that June was shot at least 6 times in a row as she was in bed and getting out of bed and then after she got up she collapsed on the floor and was shot again between the eyes.  That shot could have come before the struggle in the kitchen or after.  There is no way to know for sure because the gun could hold 11 rounds.  We have no way to know whether it had 11 rounds at the outset or 11 rounds after the kitchen encounter which is what Harters believes happened. Sheila didn't even know how the use the gun so would not have had any clue how to get the gun to hold 11 rounds.  Jeremy might have known how to accomplish such and could have chosen to do so figuring he wanted the maximum number of rounds available. He did need to kill 5 people after all.  Whether Jeremy did have the foresight to do so we have no way to know as he is never going to tell us.

After knocking Nevill out the killer reloaded the gun with at least 4 bullets.  If the killer loaded 5 or more rounds instead of just 4 that results in 1 being in the chamber still after killing Nevill.  Upon refilling the magazine that means 11 rounds in the gun.  So it would be possible to accidentally load 11 rounds.  Harters thinks that is what happened and that is why he thinks the 7th shot to June was after the kitchen episode as opposed to before. 

If one wants to argue Sheila did it they are forced to argue this because Sheila would never have known that 11 rounds could be loaded into the gun. It would have been accidental after the kitchen incident.  I have seen a lot of cases where killers initially load a round in the chamber and then maximum rounds in the magazine so that in their initial magazine load they have maximum firepower.  This is especially the case when there are not additional loaded magazines at the ready.  So I am much more willing to think that Jeremy might have done that.

[lookout]

Most would have it that Sheila was this drowsy,drugged-up fragile female who appeared to have been partially disabled in not being able to pour water without spilling it,or to put beans on toast where the beans ended up anywhere but on the plate.
Wrong ! Sheila did have periods of lucidity where she was more than able to think straight  and certainly more than capable of knowing what was going on around her.
Example was around the supper table on the night of the killings,listening to the fate of her and her boys. Jeremy even stated that his sister was calm,quiet and didn't appear to be perturbed by the conversation.
Then as soon as Jeremy left.Wham. Sheila would not have liked what she'd been listening to.How dare her parents speak as though she wasn't there,making all kinds of arrangements that she didn't want.
Sheila hadn't wanted her boys being taken away again,neither did she want to live near WHF.
I can imagine this going on in her head and she snapped good style. It wouldn't have taken much.Her dad wasn't siding with her this time,and those boys belonged to her,not her parents,not her ex-husband and his girlfriend.
Imagine the thoughts running through her mind about Colin with Heather,taking Sheila's children on holiday.No,that wasn't going to happen,nor were her parents ideas of sending Sheila to a convalescent home,she'd rather die first.
How utterly sad that there was no support and understanding for this girl who'd by now become clearly demented.   

[Mr. Gee]

Be very careful when reading Scipio's posts. He claims allot of the time that he goes by proven facts and information when its just evidenced pieced together with his assumptions and speculations. Much of what he claims as factual does not add up under close scrutiny. For example claiming I ignored the proof June was shot six times in a row, I then asked him elaborate on this alleged 'proof' and he failed to do so.

When questioned, disproven or disagreed with he resorts to craftily putting together very long posts with several paragraphs that insult the reader and goes into multiple topics combined with more insults and assumptions to put you off engaging or challenging him. He more or less manipulates and demoralises people until they either ignore or agree with him.

Anyone with actual honest information with a sound mind would not resort to such a method of communicating with people. I stopped taking him seriously long ago

Someone once said that 1% lie is carried on 99% truth. But people hold onto the lie and quite often dispense with the 99% truth in favour of the lie.

[Steve_uk]

Be very careful when reading Scipio's posts. He claims allot of the time that he goes by proven facts and information when its just evidenced pieced together with his assumptions and speculations. Much of what he claims as factual does not add up under close scrutiny. For example claiming I ignored the proof June was shot six times in a row, I then asked him elaborate on this alleged 'proof' and he failed to do so.

When questioned, disproven or disagreed with he resorts to craftily putting together very long posts with several paragraphs that insult the reader and goes into multiple topics combined with more insults and assumptions to put you off engaging or challenging him. He more or less manipulates and demoralises people until they either ignore or agree with him.

Anyone with actual honest information with a sound mind would not resort to such a method of communicating with people. I stopped taking him seriously long ago

But you have to take people as you find them and read between the lines on occasion. I know Scipio isn't perfect and at least acknowledges now that he has no way of knowing the order of deaths,thus contradicting himself from his original stance upon arrival on this forum,but his knowledge of firearms is extensive and his posts on backspatter illuminating.

[David1819]

He certainly did answer your post. Perhaps you've missed it? The logic seems hard to argue against.

Indeed he answered and I read through it, However it does not constitute proof its speculation or a version of events that cannot be proven. It may seem hard to argue against and that's exactly what he wants the reader to think by reasons I have mentioned previously.

He is probably preparing a novel full of insults riddles and trickery for me saying this but not like I will bother reading it. 

[Mr. Gee]

But you have to take people as you find them and read between the lines on occasion. I know Scipio isn't perfect and at least acknowledges now that he has no way of knowing the order of deaths,thus contradicting himself from his original stance upon arrival on this forum,but his knowledge of firearms is extensive and his posts on backspatter illuminating.

But don't forget to check out what he says, because he may leave something out to his advantage sometimes?

[lookout]

Someone once said that 1% lie is carried on 99% truth. But people hold onto the lie and quite often dispense with the 99% truth in favour of the lie.

That is so true,Mr G. So in JM's case one truth and the rest lies,as that one truth would be authentic,meaning that the rest would follow in the same vain and be believed.

[Mr. Gee]

That is so true,Mr G. So in JM's case one truth and the rest lies,as that one truth would be authentic,meaning that the rest would follow in the same vain and be believed.

I believe that the main core of the case was based upon a lie personally. I certainly read a lot of the so called evidence with a large pinch of salt.

[lookout]

I believe that the main core of the case was based upon a lie personally. I certainly read a lot of the so called evidence with a large pinch of salt.

I used a bucket of the stuff.

[scipio_usmc]

Scipio I salute you again for this thread,which must surely have converted even more members to the guilty camp. I was wondering if you could answer a few loose ends,such as the claim by Andrew Hunter that this may have been a two-gun crime,which would have implications about the necessity to reload,and also the allegation that Nevill slept with a gun under the bed(I'm supposing that the element of surprise would have rendered this useless to him if Jeremy slugged him first). Instead of marching his father downstairs couldn't he just have shot them both in situ and returned the telephone to the bedroom post-murders,or do you believe the march downstairs was part of the original plan?

I don't see Sheila in any kind of panic that last evening,having exhausted herself the previous weekend with the two parties and reaching a modus vivendi with herself after the monastery incident. I see her as being swept along with the tide of events occurring externally,which might be a fitting epitaph for her life experiences in general,a young vulnerable girl led to her death by a man who saw no other escape from the confinement which his family circumstances had inflicted upon him and which is one reason why he has taken to prison life so placidly as he approaches the milestone of thirty years' incarceration.

1) All the wounds were made by 22 caliber bullets so that means the only guns that could have been used were guns chambered in 22LR.  The only 22LR weapon at WHF was the Anschutz so a different rifle would have to have been brought there by the killer and taken away by the killer as well.

2) 15 of 25 bullets were matched to the Anschutz based on the rifling marks on the bullets.  The other 10 bullets had no markings that could rule out having been fired by the Anschutz but lacked enough markings to say they definitely were.

3) The 25 spent casings were tied to the Anschutz by the firing pin impressions, breech and extraction
marks so that proves all 25 were fired by the Anschutz not just any 22LR weapon.

4) No one can realistically fire 2 weapons the same time.  Some of the shots alleged to be fired by a different gun were among shots grouped so close they were determined to have been fired in rapid succession. This further refutes the wild speculation that 2 guns were used.

The bullets in yellow are the ones that lacked sufficient rifling marks to say they were fired by the Anschutz (though they were tied to it by the casings)

Master Bedroom

Nevill
PV/2  (Shoulder)
PV/5 (jaw) fragment broken from either PV10 or PV11
PV/10 (lip)           (WL) (no RM)
PV/11 (neck) (4L) (WL) (no RM)
Arm/chest Graze wound-1 of the following: DRH/5, 9, 15, or 35     

June
PV/23
PV/24
PV/25
PV/26
3 of the following DRH/5, 9, 15, or 35

Sheila
PV/19
PV/20

Kitchen

Nevill
PV/3 (skull)
PV/4 (skull)
PV/8 (skull)
PV/9 (skull)

Twins

Daniel
PV/29
DRH/36
PV/34
PV/35
PV/36

Nicholas
PV/30
PV/31
[bullet 3 fragmented into small parts in the head and was not recovered]
   
With the exception of June every victim had some not tied to the Anschutz by the rifling marks along. The killer used 2 different guns on each boy, 2 different guns on Sheila and 2 different guns on Nevill both in the bedroom as well as in the kitchen?  Give me a break that would be a silly claim even unless the spent casings proved it happened but they prove it didn't happen.