The main prosecution forensic case

[Jane]

Strategic places were important to June because of her religious psychosis. An illness which isn't as easy to control as Sheila's should have been. This was the last diagnosis that June received not long before the tragedy.

Do we have any formal confirmation of that, Lookout? Oh, and if you recall, the other day we were debating what were a doctor's duties when called out to confirm death at a crime scene, well today I asked my friend, a nurse, daughter, wife and mother to doctors. Her husband had been the duty doctor called out to one of our local murders -NOT the one at WHF- although I hadn't known that when I asked the question. The call out doctor's only task is to pronounce life extinct. He may form opinions on COD ONLY from what he can see, so whilst he may be able to see a knife wound/bullet hole/puncture mark, he might miss, for example, a blow to the back of the head/a stab wound to the back because he MUST NOT move the body from the position in which he found it.

[Mr. Gee]

It's quite true that June had her " places " in the farmhouse for a Bible. For instant and easy access.One was kept in the kitchen area for prayers before meals.One would be in the sitting room where the twins had to kneel and pray when June thought fit,much to Collin's chagrin. Then of course the bedrooms.

The old Puritan ministers use to share a Bible verse before breakfast in order to start the day.
The chose the verse by opening the Bible at random and reading whatever text it fell open at that was to be the verse of the day.
Anyway this old minister one day opened the cBible at random and his eyes fell on the text, "And Judas went and hanged himself". Oops! I can't give them that verse he thought. So he had another go.
This time the Bible fell open at the text, "Go thou and do likewise".

[David1819]

The serious damage is the whole point.  Because of the serious damage she already would have been dead by the time the killer returned upstairs following the kitchen altercation.  Only the shot between her eyes could have been fired at that point. 

4 of June's wounds were definitely inflicted while she was in bed.  One of these is the wound severely damaged her skull.

Entrance wounds;

1) Above right ear/ inflicted while lying in bed/ severe head damage would kill her rapidly
2) Lower right Neck / inflicted while sitting in bed based on the exit wound/ severity not described
3) right forearm/ inflicted while lying in bed
4) right knee/ inflicted while lying in bed

5) right upper chest/ inflicted while sitting, getting up or virtually upright/ caused severe bleeding still alive when inflicted
6) right lower chest / inflicted while sitting, getting up or virtually upright/ caused severe bleeding still alive while inflicted

7) Between the eyes/ inflicting while lying on the floor based on back spatter on door

Note how 6 wounds were all the the right side of her body the only bullet that wasn't is the one that was between her eyes.  That they were all to the right supports the killer firing the 6 shots from relatively the same position.  That is one hint they were fired in succession.  It is possible for all 6 to have been delivered while she was in bed. If she wasn't in bed when 5 and 6 were fired then she was either getting out of bed or practically standing upright. 

The severity of the head wound she suffered in bed means that by the time the events in the kitchen finished and the killer reloaded and came back upstairs she would have been lying on the floor.  With her body lying on the floor wounds 5 and 6 can't have been delivered the wound tracts are only able to fit someone sitting in bed, getting up out of bed or standing virtually upright.  Moreover, wounds 5 and 6 resulted in a lot of blood filling the chest.    Had bullets 5, 6 and 7 been delivered together then 5 and 6 would not have caused so much blood to fill the chest. 

It is obvious based on everything that June was shot at least 6 times in a row as she was in bed and getting out of bed and then after she got up she collapsed on the floor and was shot again between the eyes.  That shot could have come before the struggle in the kitchen or after.  There is no way to know for sure because the gun could hold 11 rounds.  We have no way to know whether it had 11 rounds at the outset or 11 rounds after the kitchen encounter which is what Harters believes happened. Sheila didn't even know how the use the gun so would not have had any clue how to get the gun to hold 11 rounds.  Jeremy might have known how to accomplish such and could have chosen to do so figuring he wanted the maximum number of rounds available. He did need to kill 5 people after all.  Whether Jeremy did have the foresight to do so we have no way to know as he is never going to tell us.

After knocking Nevill out the killer reloaded the gun with at least 4 bullets.  If the killer loaded 5 or more rounds instead of just 4 that results in 1 being in the chamber still after killing Nevill.  Upon refilling the magazine that means 11 rounds in the gun.  So it would be possible to accidentally load 11 rounds.  Harters thinks that is what happened and that is why he thinks the 7th shot to June was after the kitchen episode as opposed to before. 

If one wants to argue Sheila did it they are forced to argue this because Sheila would never have known that 11 rounds could be loaded into the gun. It would have been accidental after the kitchen incident.  I have seen a lot of cases where killers initially load a round in the chamber and then maximum rounds in the magazine so that in their initial magazine load they have maximum firepower.  This is especially the case when there are not additional loaded magazines at the ready.  So I am much more willing to think that Jeremy might have done that.

That does not prove they where all fired in quick succession.

Vanezis states that 2 of the gun shots to the head would have caused rapid death. Then states the two shots to the chest would be fatal but would take time to kill the injured. Also by the blood states on Junes night dress she would have been in an upright position at some stage.

From the image I have seen of June I cant see any blood stains on the door thou its not a good picture. Do you have any description of the blood splatter on the door?

[Adam]

So in other words she didn't try and wake her children or do anything to try and save them?

ps: I see we have moved away from a totally drugged up Sheila to a petrified and frozen Sheila.

Well she was found in the main bedroom, so may have gone in there first. Never to exit alive. Children or no children, people are usually terrified of gunmen in the dark.

I have never really said much about Sheila being totally drugged up. Although lots of people have mentioned this. Obviously if she was drugged up and as uncoordinated as AE and RB say, Jeremy is guilty.

[David1819]

Well she was found in the main bedroom, so may have gone in there first. Never to exit alive. Children or no children, people are usually terrified of gunmen in the dark.

I have never really said much about Sheila being totally drugged up. Although lots of people have mentioned this. Obviously if she was drugged up and as uncoordinated as AE and RB say, Jeremy is guilty.

Just out of curiosity why do you have a picture of Jeremy as your avatar?

[Adam]

What am I doing, saying 'if' ?

Jeremy is guilty. It has been confirmed this week. By supporters.

[Jan]

Well she was found in the main bedroom, so may have gone in there first. Never to exit alive. Children or no children, people are usually terrified of gunmen in the dark.

I have never really said much about Sheila being totally drugged up. Although lots of people have mentioned this. Obviously if she was drugged up and as uncoordinated as AE and RB say, Jeremy is guilty.

I thought the police said the lights were on?

[scipio_usmc]

That does not prove they where all fired in quick succession.

Vanezis states that 2 of the gun shots to the head would have caused rapid death. Then states the two shots to the chest would be fatal but would take time to kill the injured. Also by the blood states on Junes night dress she would have been in an upright position at some stage.

From the image I have seen of June I cant see any blood stains on the door thou its not a good picture. Do you have any description of the blood splatter on the door?

Statements including Dr Craig's notes the blood on the bottom back of the door.

June had to have collapsed quickly or she would have been able to leave the bedroom.  Since she was shot in the head in bed before the kitchen episode this precludes her surviving long.  She was already on the floor by the time the killer returned upstairs. from the kitchen.  The 2 chest wounds that he called serious can't have been delivered while she was on the floor and based on the amount of blood they filled her chest with were delivered before she died.  It is not conceivable they were delivered after the killer returned from the kitchen.  The only reason she was still in the bedroom by that time is that is where she collapsed and only the shot between the eye could have been delivered while she was lying on the floor. The other were all while she was in bed or getting out of bed.  She could have been sitting in bed or practically standing upright when shot in the chest but not lying on the floor.

 

[lookout]

Do we have any formal confirmation of that, Lookout? Oh, and if you recall, the other day we were debating what were a doctor's duties when called out to confirm death at a crime scene, well today I asked my friend, a nurse, daughter, wife and mother to doctors. Her husband had been the duty doctor called out to one of our local murders -NOT the one at WHF- although I hadn't known that when I asked the question. The call out doctor's only task is to pronounce life extinct. He may form opinions on COD ONLY from what he can see, so whilst he may be able to see a knife wound/bullet hole/puncture mark, he might miss, for example, a blow to the back of the head/a stab wound to the back because he MUST NOT move the body from the position in which he found it.

There should by rights have been a pathologist to see those bodies,as he/she would have carried out the necessary,including temperature to give an appx time of death,or how else do they expect to solve,or try and solve a murder when nobody knew what time it happened ?
Getting back to doctor's duties,a local doctor,here,took the old man's temperature because it was a sudden death and nobody else was present at the time. So different GP's have different methods.

I must find where I read about June. It could possibly have been the same doctor who'd treated Sheila in the March,but I do know that June had been diagnosed latterly to the tragedy,she'd suffered a nervous breakdown quite a few years after her first one.
This second breakdown of June's was just before Sheila met her birth mother,and it was after this meeting that Sheila had become increasingly erratic,and that's when she was sent along to see Dr Ferguson,where he'd described Sheila as being in a very agitated and psychotic state.
Even Sheila's friends had noticed that in 6 months,that she had become a " driven and tormented creature " ( Claire Powell's words, which I was once lambasted for using on here )

However,I've scanned through Powell's book to see if it had been her that had written the diagnosis of June,but up to now I can't find it. It's possible I've seen it on one of Dr Ferguson's letters on here somewhere,but I know I'm not mistaken. 

[Adam]

I thought the police said the lights were on?

On/off I would still be terrified.

I suspect Jeremy committed the massacre in the dark. Then turned them on while staging the scene.

Then he left some lights on when leaving, to try to give the impression Sheila was keeping everyone awake. Except June and the twins !

[Jane]

There should by rights have been a pathologist to see those bodies,as he/she would have carried out the necessary,including temperature to give an appx time of death,or how else do they expect to solve,or try and solve a murder when nobody knew what time it happened ?
Getting back to doctor's duties,a local doctor,here,took the old man's temperature because it was a sudden death and nobody else was present at the time. So different GP's have different methods.

I must find where I read about June. It could possibly have been the same doctor who'd treated Sheila in the March,but I do know that June had been diagnosed latterly to the tragedy,she'd suffered a nervous breakdown quite a few years after her first one.
This second breakdown of June's was just before Sheila met her birth mother,and it was after this meeting that Sheila had become increasingly erratic,and that's when she was sent along to see Dr Ferguson,where he'd described Sheila as being in a very agitated and psychotic state.
Even Sheila's friends had noticed that in 6 months,that she had become a " driven and tormented creature " ( Claire Powell's words, which I was once lambasted for using on here )

However,I've scanned through Powell's book to see if it had been her that had written the diagnosis of June,but up to now I can't find it. It's possible I've seen it on one of Dr Ferguson's letters on here somewhere,but I know I'm not mistaken.

I don't recall reading anything about June suffering a breakdown close to the murders. I would have thought that if her health had given so much cause for concern that either the housekeeper or Barbara Willson would have noticed it and mentioned it, however I will allow that as she was probably highly strung she may have been on something to reduce anxiety. I wonder where on earth an author, long after the event, would get such information.

[maggie]

On/off I would still be terrified.

I suspect Jeremy committed the massacre in the dark. Then turned them on while staging the scene.

Then he left some lights on when leaving, to try to give the impression Sheila was keeping everyone awake. Except June and the twins !

I don't believe there was a moon that night so how on earth could he have seen anything without any lights?  WHF is quite isolated there aren't any street lights.  Surely they'd all be tripping over stuff?

[Jan]

Its so predictable that the situation is made to fit .And yet if the scenario is that JB is found innocent then all of a sudden the whole thing will fit the other way. And that is the thing about this case - It can be made to fit either way . Except  for two things - JM testimony - and the sound moderator . There in are the clues.

[Adam]

I don't believe there was a moon that night so how on earth could he have seen anything without any lights?  WHF is quite isolated there aren't any street lights.  Surely they'd all be tripping over stuff?

You don't believe there was a moon. Source please.

Actually, after shooting and killing Neville and June in bed, he would put a light on to reload. Things didn't quite work like that.

[Adam]

Its so predictable that the situation is made to fit .And yet if the scenario is that JB is found innocent then all of a sudden the whole thing will fit the other way. And that is the thing about this case - It can be made to fit either way . Except  for two things - JM testimony - and the sound moderator . There in are the clues.

It can't be made to fit either way, because you can't say how Sheila committed the massacre.