Author Topic: The main prosecution forensic case  (Read 37516 times)

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Offline Patti

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #300 on: February 27, 2015, 01:15:AM »
DRH/3 was in the doorway of the bedroom. I consider it in the bedroom but it makes no real difference if someone calls it the hall.

DRH/3 on the floor inside the door of the main bedroom to the left of June's body.

guest2181

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #301 on: February 27, 2015, 01:16:AM »
That was the court exhibit reference.

Caveat: I think.  :-\

Actually, I'm not sure it was.

guest2181

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #302 on: February 27, 2015, 01:17:AM »
DRH/3 on the floor inside the door of the main bedroom to the left of June's body.

It's okay, we're talking about a metal strip now.  ;)

guest2181

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #303 on: February 27, 2015, 01:22:AM »
Just wondered because it was labelled DRH/15

They were given references based on who found or logged the item during the investigation,  these references consisted of the finders/loggers initials followed by a number. DRH referred to Hammersley I believe.

Then for the trial, the exhibits used were simply given a number for the court exhibit reference.

Having said that, I think the court exhibit 18 is the broken piece of the rifle butt rather than the rifle.

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #304 on: February 27, 2015, 01:24:AM »
Anyway, It's late and I think I'm actually still banned. So I may or may not catch you next time.

Night all.

Offline Patti

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #305 on: February 27, 2015, 01:29:AM »
Anyway, It's late and I think I'm actually still banned. So I may or may not catch you next time.

Night all.

Night Hartley.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #306 on: February 27, 2015, 01:44:AM »
mmmm

There is no sign of a struggle in the main bedroom is there? Yet there is a claim that NB had run out bullets. If this is so, why did NB not tackle Jeremy upstairs?  :-\

As I have said many times we have no idea whether the killer was running to the kitchen to get ammo with Nevill chasing the killer or Nevill was running to the kitchen to grab a weapon or try to get out the door with the killer chasing him to try to stop him. One would think that the killer would have caught up with Nevill before he reached the kitchen, he was bashing against the walls leaving a blood trail so I have a strong suspicion Nevill was chasing the killer then finally in the kitchen he tried to take the gun away and the struggle ensued.  Once Nevill was knocked unconscious that permitted the killer the freedom to reload and then shoot him to death.

   

« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 03:06:AM by scipio_usmc »
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #307 on: February 27, 2015, 03:53:AM »
Can you please show me the evidence proving June was definitely shot 6 times in a row

Four shots from a .22 rifle at close range will inflict serious damage considering some where head shots.

The serious damage is the whole point.  Because of the serious damage she already would have been dead by the time the killer returned upstairs following the kitchen altercation.  Only the shot between her eyes could have been fired at that point. 

4 of June's wounds were definitely inflicted while she was in bed.  One of these is the wound severely damaged her skull.

Entrance wounds;

1) Above right ear/ inflicted while lying in bed/ severe head damage would kill her rapidly
2) Lower right Neck / inflicted while sitting in bed based on the exit wound/ severity not described
3) right forearm/ inflicted while lying in bed
4) right knee/ inflicted while lying in bed

5) right upper chest/ inflicted while sitting, getting up or virtually upright/ caused severe bleeding still alive when inflicted
6) right lower chest / inflicted while sitting, getting up or virtually upright/ caused severe bleeding still alive while inflicted

7) Between the eyes/ inflicting while lying on the floor based on back spatter on door

Note how 6 wounds were all the the right side of her body the only bullet that wasn't is the one that was between her eyes.  That they were all to the right supports the killer firing the 6 shots from relatively the same position.  That is one hint they were fired in succession.  It is possible for all 6 to have been delivered while she was in bed. If she wasn't in bed when 5 and 6 were fired then she was either getting out of bed or practically standing upright. 

The severity of the head wound she suffered in bed means that by the time the events in the kitchen finished and the killer reloaded and came back upstairs she would have been lying on the floor.  With her body lying on the floor wounds 5 and 6 can't have been delivered the wound tracts are only able to fit someone sitting in bed, getting up out of bed or standing virtually upright.  Moreover, wounds 5 and 6 resulted in a lot of blood filling the chest.    Had bullets 5, 6 and 7 been delivered together then 5 and 6 would not have caused so much blood to fill the chest. 

It is obvious based on everything that June was shot at least 6 times in a row as she was in bed and getting out of bed and then after she got up she collapsed on the floor and was shot again between the eyes.  That shot could have come before the struggle in the kitchen or after.  There is no way to know for sure because the gun could hold 11 rounds.  We have no way to know whether it had 11 rounds at the outset or 11 rounds after the kitchen encounter which is what Harters believes happened. Sheila didn't even know how the use the gun so would not have had any clue how to get the gun to hold 11 rounds.  Jeremy might have known how to accomplish such and could have chosen to do so figuring he wanted the maximum number of rounds available. He did need to kill 5 people after all.  Whether Jeremy did have the foresight to do so we have no way to know as he is never going to tell us.

After knocking Nevill out the killer reloaded the gun with at least 4 bullets.  If the killer loaded 5 or more rounds instead of just 4 that results in 1 being in the chamber still after killing Nevill.  Upon refilling the magazine that means 11 rounds in the gun.  So it would be possible to accidentally load 11 rounds.  Harters thinks that is what happened and that is why he thinks the 7th shot to June was after the kitchen episode as opposed to before. 

If one wants to argue Sheila did it they are forced to argue this because Sheila would never have known that 11 rounds could be loaded into the gun. It would have been accidental after the kitchen incident.  I have seen a lot of cases where killers initially load a round in the chamber and then maximum rounds in the magazine so that in their initial magazine load they have maximum firepower.  This is especially the case when there are not additional loaded magazines at the ready.  So I am much more willing to think that Jeremy might have done that.   
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #308 on: February 27, 2015, 04:03:AM »
DRH/3 on the floor inside the door of the main bedroom to the left of June's body.

Note my edit:

"Edit: sorry DRH/3 was a typo the 1 got eaten I meant DRH/13. Right inside the doorway is a metal floor strip. This strip is technically inside the room.  DRH/13 was supposedly sitting on it. So whether you call this in the room or the hall is a matter of tomato tomaato.  It is in the doorway right in between.
 
DRH/14 was in the hall right against the bedroom wall. Someone clearly had it stuck on their shoe and brought it there from the kitchen then it shook loose from the shoe and either landed in the corner or deposited away from the wall but it was later kicked into wall so it lodged in the corner of the wall.  If it was kicked into the wall on purpose that was a no no."
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Offline Adam

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #309 on: February 27, 2015, 05:22:AM »
The word begins with 'D'.

Sheila fires two shots each into the twins. Although she is in a crazy rage she does not empty the rifle. Mmm.

Neville and June, sleeping in another room luckily hear the four shots. Rather than go out together to investigate, only Neville goes out. Mmm.

Neville sees Sheila with a gun, by the twins room. He abandons everyone. To....ring Jeremy. Mmm.

He calls Jeremy and just says ten words. Although Sheila is upstairs, leaving him alone. Then leaves the phone off the hook so Jeremy cannot call back. Mmm. I trust you do not believe Neville phoned Chelmsford police.

June had decided to go back to sleep. As her first shot was with her head on the pillow. Mmm.

Neville returns upstairs after abandoning everyone for several minutes.  Without anything to protect his face or torso. Although he wants to 'stop the ordeal' and was scared enough to ring Jeremy, knowing there has been gun shots. Mmm.

Although Sheila had shot the twins, and June. Neville enters the main bedroom unprotected. Although he had just abandoned his family and rang Jeremy, so terrified of Sheila. Mmm.

Sheila very accurately shoots and hits Neville four times. Neville again goes downstairs. Mmm.

Neville decides to just wait in the kitchen for Sheila to reload, although there is no proof she could re load. Mmm.

Once Sheila has reloaded she enters the kitchen. Rather than shoot Neville, she engages in a violent struggle. The judge saying 'Neville put up a tremendous fight for life'. Sheila gives Neville a brutal beating and doesn't get a mark on herself. Mmm.

Sheila now has delusions about the twins and reloads to shoot the dead twins another four times. Mmm
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #310 on: February 27, 2015, 05:27:AM »
The funniest thing about this is Neville hears gun shots. Then sees Sheila holding a gun by the twins. So of course runs downstairs....to ring Jeremy ??? However a lot made me chuckle.

But as I said, at least you you made the effort. Twice. Everyone else bottling it as they know there is no plausible explanation. Jan claiming she destroyed my version, although she did not comment.

So why support Jeremy if supporters cannot explain how Sheila did it ?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 06:00:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #311 on: February 27, 2015, 05:31:AM »
Cycle to WHF.

Get in quietly through the loose bathroom window.

Go upstairs with a loaded rifle. Silencer attached.

Shoot June several times while in bed. Shoot Neville several times.

Either go downstairs to re load, believing Neville and June are now incapacitated, and is followed by Neville. Or chase's a fleeing Neville downstairs.

Fight and brutally knock out an injured Neville in the kitchen.

Reload and shoot Neville four more times.

Return upstairs. Wake and get Sheila into the main bedroom. Or find Sheila already awake. Either way, she is shot.

Shoot June again who is now on the floor.

Reload and fire eight bullets into the sleeping twins.

Stage the scene and exit out of the kitchen window (14 sources).

Cycles back to the cottage.


Feel free to destroy.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 06:29:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Mr. Gee

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #312 on: February 27, 2015, 08:16:AM »
Yes the gun was reloaded after shooting Nevill in the kitchen, it was likely only partially loaded so that he could quickly be shot before he woke up and caused more problems.  Then with him the dead the killer had extra time to fully reload before going back upstairs to finish the job.

There are 3 distinct shootings and some slight variations possible.

I. Prior to the kitchen episode
II Kitchen Episode
III Post Kitchen episode.

The kitchen episode had 4 shots there is no variation possible.  It is 1 and 3 that have variation possible.

IA) The gun was initially loaded with 11 rounds all 7 bullets into June and 4 into Nevill
IB) The gun initially had 10 rounds  6 bullets into June and 4 into Nevill 

IIIA) Returned from the kitchen with 10 rounds, 8 into the boys and 2 into Sheila
IIIB) Returned from the kitchen with 11 rounds, 1 between June's eyes, 8 into the boys, 2 into Sheila

Not that it is theoretically possible for the boys to have been killed before Sheila.  We know the 10 rounds were used on them but can't be sure the boys were killed first.  If Sheila was already out of her room she had to be dealt with before the boys.  If Sheila was still in her room then it makes more sense to kill the boys first and then her. Obviously if one wants to assert she was the killer she had to die last.
So in order to make this all work your only option is to have Sheila sleeping through all this firing and fighting, otherwise you have a problem with her apparently running around doing nothing whiles he shot her entire family?

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #313 on: February 27, 2015, 08:20:AM »
A gun with a low trigger pull like the murder weapon is very easy to double tap, which means two shots in quick succession.  However, if that happened one would expect the wounds to be closer and trajectories much closer.  Worse Vanezis said several seconds elapsed between Sheila's shots.  He said that several seconds passed before the second was fired but not too many seconds.  So this seems to suggest the second shot through the chin into the brain was intentional.  The first shot was nearly level the gun was almost a 90 degree angle to the neck and the bullet went from the front of the neck to back.  My best guess is after seeing that the first shot didn't kill her Jeremy panicked and shot her again.
You forgot the question mark scipio. The other option of course is that she bent over the gun whilst sitting and firing? The gun would have still been at 90 degrees. There. I didn't forget my question mark, as both are theories and not necessarily fact.

Offline maggie

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #314 on: February 27, 2015, 09:22:AM »
You forgot the question mark scipio. The other option of course is that she bent over the gun whilst sitting and firing? The gun would have still been at 90 degrees. There. I didn't forget my question mark, as both are theories and not necessarily fact.
I have thought that a possibility, she may have sat on the bed and leant over the gun, fallen off the bed after first shot and come round on the floor at the side of the bed which may account for the blood which soaked into the arm of her night dress as she would have fallen face down. Although befuddled in most ways clear headed about what she wanted to do (this happens when in shock) she shot herself again either climbing back onto the bed first or sitting and leaning against the cabinet, no mistakes the second time.
Am sure Scorpio will rip this to bits, but what does he know?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 09:34:AM by maggie »