The main prosecution forensic case

[guest2181]

Well I didn't mention it before but if Nevill were shot on the stairs then he would have had a shot to his back and the casing would have either gone down the stairs or towards the room Sheila was staying in. The bullet trajectory would have gone from his back to his front.  All 4 bullets fired upstairs his his left profile which would have been facing the wall as he went down the stairs.   

The casing in the hallway against the master bedroom wall is to the left of the gun not right (ejection port is on the right) had someone being shooting at someone on the stairs.  That casing was from the kitchen, it was accidentally stuck on a shoe and brought there as someone was walking it could even have been the killer's shoe for all we know.

Yes you are right about a case being transferred from the kitchen.

I'm a bit rusty but I thought there was another case at the top of the stairs on the landing, the stairs turn 180 degrees, so the shot doesn't need to be behind Neville.

But you may be right, I may have confused the transferred case.

[scipio_usmc]

The magazine must have been reloaded after the 4 shots to NB. 

Yes the gun was reloaded after shooting Nevill in the kitchen, it was likely only partially loaded so that he could quickly be shot before he woke up and caused more problems.  Then with him the dead the killer had extra time to fully reload before going back upstairs to finish the job.

There are 3 distinct shootings and some slight variations possible.

I. Prior to the kitchen episode
II Kitchen Episode
III Post Kitchen episode.

The kitchen episode had 4 shots there is no variation possible.  It is 1 and 3 that have variation possible.

IA) The gun was initially loaded with 11 rounds all 7 bullets into June and 4 into Nevill
IB) The gun initially had 10 rounds  6 bullets into June and 4 into Nevill 

IIIA) Returned from the kitchen with 10 rounds, 8 into the boys and 2 into Sheila
IIIB) Returned from the kitchen with 11 rounds, 1 between June's eyes, 8 into the boys, 2 into Sheila

Not that it is theoretically possible for the boys to have been killed before Sheila.  We know the 10 rounds were used on them but can't be sure the boys were killed first.  If Sheila was already out of her room she had to be dealt with before the boys.  If Sheila was still in her room then it makes more sense to kill the boys first and then her. Obviously if one wants to assert she was the killer she had to die last.

[guest2181]

Thought there was only one bullet left - so wasn't careful with the trigger and ended up firing twice?

Yes, that was my suggestion.

[Caroline]

The other thing Scip, is I think the killer 'may' have miscounted the bullets when it came to Sheila, and fired the two shots but thinking there was only one bullet left.

If that makes sense? 

Yes, I've also thought that - I remember NGB saying the rifle had a hair trigger so it would be easy to do.

[scipio_usmc]

Yes you are right about a case being transferred from the kitchen.

I'mI'm a bit rusty but I thought there was another case at the top of the stairs on the landing, the stairs turn 180 degrees, so the shot doesn't need to be behind Neville.

But you may be right, I may have confused the transferred case.

The one against the wall there is the only one that was in the hall.  It has been characterized as being found on the stairs, on the landing, against the wall, in the hall...  The fact so many different descriptions are used by different people makes it confusing.  When I first started examining the case I thought Nevill was shot in the head while walking down the stairs (5 shots upstairs) because of reading it was found on the stairs. Only later did I realize had any of the headshots from the kitchen been delivered upstairs he never would have reached the kitchen. 

13 casings were in the master bedroom, 3 in the kitchen, 8 in the room the twins were in and 1 in the hall.   

[guest2181]

The one against the wall there is the only one that was in the hall.  It has been characterized as being found on the stairs, on the landing, against the wall, in the hall...  The fact so many different descriptions are used by different people makes it confusing.  When I first started examining the case I thought Nevill was shot in the head while walking down the stairs (5 shots upstairs) because of reading it was found on the stairs. Only later did I realize had any of the headshots from the kitchen been delivered upstairs he never would have reached the kitchen. 

13 casings were in the master bedroom, 3 in the kitchen, 8 in the room the twins were in and 1 in the hall.

That answers that then. 

[David1819]

1) David chooses to believe the kids were shot first no matter what.  He asserts several shots were fired into the kids, then the killer went to the master bedroom fired 4 into June and came back after the kitchen shooting to fire 3 more into her.  David chooses to ignore the evidence that June suffered at least 6 shots in a row and collapsed on the floor before the killer could return from the kitchen.  He doesn't care that the other 2 shots were fired while she was either seated or getting up and thus could not have been delivered while she was lying on the floor which is where she had to be by the time the killer returned from the kitchen.

2) David chooses to ignore the evidence that Nevill's 4 wounds from upstairs were not immediately life threatening and that there was a struggle and prefers to believe he simply stumbled to the kitchen then collapsed over the chair.

3) You are forgetting that it is theoretically possible for Jeremy to have loaded 11 bullets at the outset and thus to have fired all 7 at June and 4 at Nevill in the initial shooting event. If that happened the killer went upstairs with only 10 and only shot the boys and Sheila in the post kitchen shooting.  There is no way to know for sure whether the gun had 11 prior to the kitchen episode or after.  This doesn't affect your point though about the boys being shot after the kitchen episode.

Can you please show me the evidence proving June was definitely shot 6 times in a row

Four shots from a .22 rifle at close range will inflict serious damage considering some where head shots.

[Patti]

If NB and June were shot in the main bedroom? Where was Sheila and how did she get into the main bedroom?  Why was June walking round the bed and not heading for the door? Still many questions unanswered. 

[Patti]

I believe the rifle was already damaged when the children were shot for the rifle went off in succession. I also believe the rifle was damaged when NB was shot, thus might mean that he was hit with the rifle prior to reloading the magazine...The reason I believe this is that the head shots are in two's...

I believe June was shot first along with Nevill.  But I cannot explain Sheila? Something just does not fit imo...

[guest2181]

That answers that then. 

Actually, I was right the first time and I'm annoyed (not really  :D ) for doubting myself.

Exhibits DRH 13 & 14 were both found on the stairs and landing.

[Patti]

LANDING

DRH/14...landing floor adjacent to the wall.

MAIN BEDROOM


DRH/13 metal strip of doorway
DRH/6 top of quit right hand side of the bed
DRH/7 under wardrobe
DRH/7 under wardrobe (note Hammersley quotes two cases found under same serial number DRH7
DRH/8 left hand side of bed 4inches from the pillow
DRH/9 Bullet found 4 inches form DRH/8 near pillow left hand side of bed
DRH/10  on the quilt right hand side of the bed on floor.
DRH/11 right hand side of bed on the floor near the wardrobe
DRH/12 on the floor right hand side of the bed
DRH/43 under the wardrobe right hand side of bed
DRH/1 right side of Sheila's body
DRH/2 Left hand side of Sheila's body
DRH/3 on the floor inside the door of the main bedroom to the left of June's body.
DRH/4 next to DRH/3
DRH/5 Bullet.

TWINS ROOM

8 cases and 1 bullet.

DRH/37 under wooden bedside cabinet
DRH/36 Bullet
DRH/38 Under right hand side of the bed at the head of the bed
DRH 39 right hand corner under right hand side of the bed
DRH/39 (note Hammersley quotes two case shells)
DRH 40 under the middle of the right hand bed
DRH/16 floor between both beds
DRH/17 On wooden cabinet between both beds
DRH18 right hand side of bed

[guest2181]

If NB and June were shot in the main bedroom? Where was Sheila and how did she get into the main bedroom?  Why was June walking round the bed and not heading for the door? Still many questions unanswered. 

Sheila was in her room.

She used her legs to get to the main bedroom, it wasn't far. 

[scipio_usmc]

It's possible, but I don't believe so, I think the killer underestimated the number of bullets required and thought a single magazine was enough.

I think the killer reloaded directly from the gun cupboard. The 30 rounds spilled on the counter were planted afterwards.

I agree the bullets in the kitchen were planted afterwards. I also agree the killer underestimated things.  But it is common for killers to load 1 in the chamber and then have a full magazine at the outset of a crime.  There is a desire to have maximum amount of rounds available. This applies not just with weapons that have detachable magazines.  In the Amityville Murder case the murder weapon was a lever action rifle that had an integral magazine.  He chambered a round then loaded another so he would have maximum capacity.  I know a lot of people who keep 1 round in the chamber and then a full mag in the handguns they carry.  How prolific he was with his gun would determine whether this would cross his mind. He might not have realized it was even possible. It is nonetheless a theoretical possibility that should be mentioned when giving the field of possibilities.

As for losing count of the shot fired that is very easy to do.  It is hard to stay focused and keep track of the count. I lost count plenty of times on the range.  That is why it wasn't that easy for him to know how many bullets to stage but I don't think he even considered they would count the bullets and add the ones fired to them to test his claims.





 

[guest2181]

LANDING

DRH/14...landing floor adjacent to the wall.

MAIN BEDROOM


DRH/13 metal strip of doorway
DRH/6 top of quit right hand side of the bed
DRH/7 under wardrobe
DRH/7 under wardrobe (note Hammersley quotes two cases found under same serial number DRH7
DRH/8 left hand side of bed 4inches from the pillow
DRH/9 Bullet found 4 inches form DRH/8 near pillow left hand side of bed
DRH/10  on the quilt right hand side of the bed on floor.
DRH/11 right hand side of bed on the floor near the wardrobe
DRH/12 on the floor right hand side of the bed
DRH/43 under the wardrobe right hand side of bed
DRH/1 right side of Sheila's body
DRH/2 Left hand side of Sheila's body
DRH/3 on the floor inside the door of the main bedroom to the left of June's body.
DRH/4 next to DRH/3
DRH/5 Bullet.

TWINS ROOM

8 cases and 1 bullet.

DRH/37 under wooden bedside cabinet
DRH/36 Bullet
DRH/38 Under right hand side of the bed at the head of the bed
DRH 39 right hand corner under right hand side of the bed
DRH/39 (note Hammersley quotes two case shells)
DRH 40 under the middle of the right hand bed
DRH/16 floor between both beds
DRH/17 On wooden cabinet between both beds
DRH18 right hand side of bed

Metal strip of doorway? I'll get back in my box then. 

[guest2181]

I agree the bullets in the kitchen were planted afterwards. I also agree the killer underestimated things.  But it is common for killers to load 1 in the chamber and then have a full magazine at the outset of a crime.  There is a desire to have maximum amount of rounds available. This applies not just with weapons that have detachable magazines.  In the Amityville Murder case the murder weapon was a lever action rifle that had an integral magazine.  He chambered a round then loaded another so he would have maximum capacity.  I know a lot of people who keep 1 round in the chamber and then a full mag in the handguns they carry.  How prolific he was with his gun would determine whether this would cross his mind. He might not have realized it was even possible. It is nonetheless a theoretical possibility that should be mentioned when giving the field of possibilities.

As for losing count of the shot fired that is very easy to do.  It is hard to stay focused and keep track of the count. I lost count plenty of times on the range.  That is why it wasn't that easy for him to know how many bullets to stage but I don't think he even considered they would count the bullets and add the ones fired to them to test his claims.





 

Either way, the killer must have loaded directly from the gun cupboard in the office, at least the first time.

Perhaps there was a partially full box containing only 5 bullets, then a second full box was opened.