The main prosecution forensic case

[lookout]

scipio is very clever with words, but unfortunately doesn't know how to use them.

Oh he does,Mr G.

[Jan]

1) they were not in the next room there was a room in between the room the boys slept in and the master bedroom- that's weird because I thought you claimed the gun would be heard from outside - but it would not wake them inside the house?

2) the gun had a moderator and subsonic bullets- for use when killing rabbits

3) there are documented cases of kids and adults not waking up despite people being shot in the room adjacent to theirs with an unsuppressed firearm larger than 22 calibre - and I am sure there are documented cases where they did wake up - so this post is deliberately decieptful

So YOU LOSE

[scipio_usmc]

1) they were not in the next room there was a room in between the room the boys slept in and the master bedroom- that's weird because I thought you claimed the gun would be heard from outside - but it would not wake them inside the house?

More evidence of your inability to think cogently.  The police were asleep outside?  The police were outside trying to observe anything they could form inside the house and the window of the bedroom where Sheila was killed was open.  Sound travels much better outside an open window than through multiple sets of walls. The boys were not awake trying to listen to any sound they could they were sleeping. 

[/color]2) the gun had a moderator and subsonic bullets- for use when killing rabbits

Subsonic bullets and moderators are used in combination for plinking targets so that peopel do not need to use hearing protection.

While it was documented Jeremy used the gun for target shooting no one ever saw him shoot a rabbit or other animal with it.  The scope was used all such occasions including when Jeremy was seen walking around with it.  His original excuse that the gun didn't fit in the closet with the scope and moderator attached fell apart as a lie and had to give way to other excuses for why they were removed though not convincing reasons.

[/color]3) there are documented cases of kids and adults not waking up despite people being shot in the room adjacent to theirs with an unsuppressed firearm larger than 22 calibre - and I am sure there are documented cases where they did wake up - so this post is deliberately decieptful

So YOU LOSE

Yes there are both documented cases where people slept through shots and documented cases where people woke up.  You claimed it is not possible for the kids could have slept through shots fired.   The fact some people have slept through shots refutes your claim is it not possible. So how did I lose?

[Mr. Gee]

Oh he does,Mr G.

It was a play on my words lookout.

[guest2181]

Yes there are both documented cases where people slept through shots and documented cases where people woke up.  You claimed it is not possible for the kids could have slept through shots fired.   The fact some people have slept through shots refutes your claim is it not possible. So how did I lose?

It's a bit of a mute discussion, it is quite clear from the bullet cases and numbers for reloading, that the children were the third and fourth victims. Regardless of who the killer was.

The children were thankfully still asleep when they perished, so they clearly were not woken by the shots in the master bedroom, on the landing and in the kitchen.

There is no argument to be had regarding acoustics.

[David1819]

It's a bit of a mute discussion, it is quite clear from the bullet cases and numbers for reloading, that the children were the third and fourth victims. Regardless of who the killer was.

The children were thankfully still asleep when they perished, so they clearly were not woken by the shots in the master bedroom, on the landing and in the kitchen.

There is no argument to be had regarding acoustics.

How can you work that out? not disbelieving you i'm genuinely curious

[guest2181]

How can you work that out? not disbelieving you i'm genuinely curious

I formulated the only plausible order of shots, with regards to injuries sustained, opportunities to reload, magazine capacity and the number of shots fired.

I'll try and dig out the post where I scheduled it out.

[guest2181]

How can you work that out? not disbelieving you i'm genuinely curious

The order of shots is as follows, there is no plausible alternative:

The first 9 shots were in the master bedroom and one on landing, 4 shots to Nevill and 6 shots to June.

The rifle was reloaded in the kitchen and four shots were to Nevills head in the kitchen.

The partially full magazine was reloaded, with a bullet already in the breach, the rifle now contained 11 bullets.

These 11 bullets were distributed as follows: 8 to the twins, 1 more to June and 2 to Sheila.

[Patti]

The order of shots is as follows, there is no plausible alternative:

10 shots in the bedroom and one on the stairs makes 11....do you include one in the breach?

4 more shots to NB after reloading? leaves 7 including one in the breach.

The magazine must have been reloaded after the 4 shots to NB. 

[guest2181]

10 9 shots in the bedroom and one on the stairs makes 11....do you include one in the breach?

4 more shots to NB after reloading? leaves 7 including one in the breach.

The magazine must have been reloaded after the 4 shots to NB. 

My bad typing. Read again. 

[scipio_usmc]

The order of shots is as follows, there is no plausible alternative:

1) David chooses to believe the kids were shot first no matter what.  He asserts several shots were fired into the kids, then the killer went to the master bedroom fired 4 into June and came back after the kitchen shooting to fire 3 more into her.  David chooses to ignore the evidence that June suffered at least 6 shots in a row and collapsed on the floor before the killer could return from the kitchen.  He doesn't care that the other 2 shots were fired while she was either seated or getting up and thus could not have been delivered while she was lying on the floor which is where she had to be by the time the killer returned from the kitchen.

2) David chooses to ignore the evidence that Nevill's 4 wounds from upstairs were not immediately life threatening and that there was a struggle and prefers to believe he simply stumbled to the kitchen then collapsed over the chair.

3) You are forgetting that it is theoretically possible for Jeremy to have loaded 11 bullets at the outset and thus to have fired all 7 at June and 4 at Nevill in the initial shooting event. If that happened the killer went upstairs with only 10 and only shot the boys and Sheila in the post kitchen shooting.  There is no way to know for sure whether the gun had 11 prior to the kitchen episode or after.  This doesn't affect your point though about the boys being shot after the kitchen episode.

[guest2181]

1) David chooses to believe the kids were shot first no matter what.  He asserts several shots were fired into the kids, then the killer went to the master bedroom fired 4 into June and came back after the kitchen shooting to fire 3 more into her.  David chooses to ignore the evidence that June suffered at least 6 shots in a row and collapsed on the floor before the killer could return from the kitchen.  He doesn't care that the other 2 shots were fired while she was either seated or getting up and thus could not have been delivered while she was lying on the floor which is where she had to be by the time the killer returned from the kitchen.

2) David chooses to ignore the evidence that Nevill's 4 wounds from upstairs were not immediately life threatening and that there was a struggle and prefers to believe he simply stumbled to the kitchen then collapsed over the chair.

3) You are forgetting that it is theoretically possible for Jeremy to have loaded 11 bullets at the outset and thus to have fired all 7 at June and 4 at Nevill in the initial shooting event. If that happened the killer went upstairs with only 10 and only shot the boys and Sheila in the post kitchen shooting.  There is no way to know for sure whether the gun had 11 prior to the kitchen episode or after.  This doesn't affect your point though about the boys being shot after the kitchen episode.

It's possible, but I don't believe so, I think the killer underestimated the number of bullets required and thought a single magazine was enough.

I think the killer reloaded directly from the gun cupboard. The 30 rounds spilled on the counter were planted afterwards.

[scipio_usmc]

My bad typing. Read again. 

Well I didn't mention it before but if Nevill were shot on the stairs then he would have had a shot to his back and the casing would have either gone down the stairs or towards the room Sheila was staying in. The bullet trajectory would have gone from his back to his front.  All 4 bullets fired upstairs his his left profile which would have been facing the wall as he went down the stairs.   

The casing in the hallway against the master bedroom wall is to the left of the gun not right (ejection port is on the right) had someone being shooting at someone on the stairs.  That casing was from the kitchen, it was accidentally stuck on a shoe and brought there as someone was walking it could even have been the killer's shoe for all we know.

[guest2181]

It's possible, but I don't believe so, I think the killer underestimated the number of bullets required and thought a single magazine was enough.

I think the killer reloaded directly from the gun cupboard. The 30 rounds spilled on the counter were planted afterwards.

The other thing Scip, is I think the killer 'may' have miscounted the bullets when it came to Sheila, and fired the two shots but thinking there was only one bullet left.

If that makes sense? 

[guest154]

Thought there was only one bullet left - so wasn't careful with the trigger and ended up firing twice?