Author Topic: The main prosecution forensic case  (Read 37675 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #180 on: February 25, 2015, 04:46:PM »
All I have seen in scipio's post is an over willingness to believe a liar. There is no good point. How can I help it if people want to believe the lies of a jilted lover? Also an innocent man needs no alibi as you put it. Alibis are for crooks and murderers.

What I did was post how rational people approach the topic of assessing whether she lied.  You refuse to engage in that analysis because such analysis results in no evidence she lied.  You don't care that you have no evidence to establish she lied and that analysis of her claims suggest she is telling the truth.  You want to believe she is a liar regardless of the facts and evidence and have branded her a liar as a result.  You can do that all you like but it doesn't validate your claims in fact it undermines them.

That just demonstrate you operate on the basis of bias as opposed to rational thought. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Online lookout

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #181 on: February 25, 2015, 04:50:PM »
What I did was post how rational people approach the topic of assessing whether she lied.  You refuse to engage in that analysis because such analysis results in no evidence she lied.  You don't care that you have no evidence to establish she lied and that analysis of her claims suggest she is telling the truth.  You want to believe she is a liar regardless of the facts and evidence and have branded her a liar as a result.  You can do that all you like but it doesn't validate your claims in fact it undermines them.

That just demonstrate you operate on the basis of bias as opposed to rational thought.





And you don't happen to be biased,of course ? Much !

Offline Jan

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #182 on: February 25, 2015, 04:59:PM »
Wait what! ...... Jeremy cycling and committing the murders in the nude? people actually think he could have done that? whoever suggests that must have been joking

actually all have been suggested - but I must admit I had not pictured them all together at once  :o :o

Plus when he is shooting rabbits its dark ( not TRUE) but he can quite happily cycle across fields or seawalls in the dark  ;) In the wetsuit wearing marigolds.

oh and he probably took a change of clothes and buried the bloodied ones on the way back.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #183 on: February 25, 2015, 05:08:PM »
And you don't happen to be biased,of course ? Much !

No I follow the facts where they lead.  I got involved in this case because someone told me Jeremy was railroaded and the allegations were so interesting I had to look into it.  It sounded like it was an amazing conspiracy with bodies moved and so forth.  I thought the claims could be true. 

Upon scrutiny though I found out there was more evidence than I was lead to believe.  Most of the evidence used to convict Jeremy was never mentioned and the case against him not accurately described.  Worse most of the spectacular claims like planted evidence, bodies being moved and shot by police, Nevill phoning police himself etc all fell apart under scrutiny.  So I had to go to square one nad look at the exact evidence used to convict fully understand the entire case and then look at the defense evidence and evaluate whether they refuted the evidence of guilt.  It is pretty obvious they failed to do so.  I am still waiting for something to refute the evidence that establishes Jeremy is guilty and if that is ever successfully accomplished then at that point I will accept he is innocent.

I operate on the basis of proof and evidence.  I follow the evidence where it leads. Some people like you have decided Jeremy is innocent no matter what and you close your eyes to ,any of the relevant facts in assessing whether he is guilty or not.  It often results in you simply accepting made up things posted by Mike and others instead of making sure the claims are actually true.  If it is favorable to Jeremy you accept something if unfavorable to Jeremy you reject it.  You accept or reject based on whether it helps or hurts Jeremy not whether it is substantiated. That is the very essence of how bias operates.

Biased or not people should strive to make sure they are operating on real facts because it hurts credibility and makes someone look dishonest or at least foolish when they adopt claims that end up being made up. Trying to spin real facts is one thing.  Trying to use made up facts and claims is something else.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #184 on: February 25, 2015, 05:08:PM »
Julie stated that Jeremy is the one who told her MM did it.  There is no speculation from guilters.  One of the things objective people do when evaluating claims is to look at whether someone has a reason to make up a claim. There is no evidence she wanted to frame Jeremy but even if Julie had wanted to frame Jeremy she had no reason to make up a claim about MM being involved.  If Jeremy had an alibi and she wanted to frame him then in that case she would have a reason to make a hitman confession. But he didn't have an alibi so there was no need.  Furthermore, if she were going to make up a hitman story to frame him then she would not want to actually name a hitman because that person could provide an alibi and ruin the whole thing.  It would be far better to say he never identified the hitman. 

Innocenters such as yourself refuse to do any objective analysis and just decided you want to believe Jeremy is innocent so that forced you to argue Julie is a lair and you do so without any objective look at her accounts and despite having no evidence to establish she lied.  Various evidence corroborates Julie's claims that Jeremy admitted to her that he was responsible including calling her before calling police which should send red flags to anyone objective and worse the forensic evidence that establishes Sheila didn't do it and thus that someone who fled the scene murdered them.  But you ignore that evidence as well and suggest the whole case was the most vast frameup in UK history.

Great post Scip! Totally agree!!
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Offline Caroline

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #185 on: February 25, 2015, 05:10:PM »
actually all have been suggested - but I must admit I had not pictured them all together at once  :o :o

Plus when he is shooting rabbits its dark ( not TRUE) but he can quite happily cycle across fields or seawalls in the dark  ;) In the wetsuit wearing marigolds.

oh and he probably took a change of clothes and buried the bloodied ones on the way back.

He didn't need to bury his clothes, he wouldn't be an immediate suspect with the story he had in mind and the staging he had just completed.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #186 on: February 25, 2015, 05:13:PM »
actually all have been suggested - but I must admit I had not pictured them all together at once  :o :o

Plus when he is shooting rabbits its dark ( not TRUE) but he can quite happily cycle across fields or seawalls in the dark  ;) In the wetsuit wearing marigolds.

oh and he probably took a change of clothes and buried the bloodied ones on the way back.

Indeed not true he admitted he didn't shoot any rabbits and it is quite obvious he made up the story of hearing/seeing rabbits so far away and getting out the gun then leaving it and the bullets out.  he clearly staged the bullets after the murders.

No one suggested he committed the murders nude Jeremy supporters suggested Sheila did so.

As for changing his closes and washing up before he left he indeed could have chosen to do that he had clothes there already so already had clothes to change into if desired.  Being caught on the street full of blood and wearing clothes with spatter and GSR would be quite bad so he could indeed have chosen to try to wash up and change.  He could have disposed of the clothing on his way home or hid them somewhere to dispose of at a later time.  These are not wild speculations they are things that happen frequently and are based on rational thought.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Mr. Gee

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #187 on: February 25, 2015, 05:17:PM »
What I did was post how rational people approach the topic of assessing whether she lied.  You refuse to engage in that analysis because such analysis results in no evidence she lied.  You don't care that you have no evidence to establish she lied and that analysis of her claims suggest she is telling the truth.  You want to believe she is a liar regardless of the facts and evidence and have branded her a liar as a result.  You can do that all you like but it doesn't validate your claims in fact it undermines them.

That just demonstrate you operate on the basis of bias as opposed to rational thought.
Rational thought because her testimony consists of her alleged private conversations between her and Bamber alone must look for evidence to back up her claims. There are none. Rather there is a very strong likehood that her terstimony was a tissue of lies. Why do I say that although I have stressed it many times before? Because there is a very strong case that her testimony was born out of powerful evidence that she was a woman scorned.

Offline Caroline

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #188 on: February 25, 2015, 05:19:PM »
Rational thought because her testimony consists of her alleged private conversations between her and Bamber alone must look for evidence to back up her claims. There are none. Rather there is a very strong likehood that her terstimony was a tissue of lies. Why do I say that although I have stressed it many times before? Because there is a very strong case that her testimony was born out of powerful evidence that she was a woman scorned.

So she told lies that could be easily be found out? Implicating a complete stranger so she could get revenge on Jeremy? Yes, that's completely rational  ::)
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Mr. Gee

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #189 on: February 25, 2015, 05:24:PM »
Great post Scip! Totally agree!!
So you totally agree with him that innocenters like me have "refuse to do any objective analysis and just decided you want to believe Jeremy is innocent so that forced you to argue Julie is a lair and you do so without any objective look at her accounts and despite having no evidence to establish she lied." do you? In other words you agree with scipio because I have just decided I want him to be innocent because I refuse to do any objective analysis do you? I thought that that is precisely what I was doing, except that it is against scipio's opinions and that is what he doesn't like and also it appears neither do you?

Offline Caroline

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #190 on: February 25, 2015, 05:31:PM »
So you totally agree with him that innocenters like me have "refuse to do any objective analysis and just decided you want to believe Jeremy is innocent so that forced you to argue Julie is a lair and you do so without any objective look at her accounts and despite having no evidence to establish she lied." do you? In other words you agree with scipio because I have just decided I want him to be innocent because I refuse to do any objective analysis do you? I thought that that is precisely what I was doing, except that it is against scipio's opinions and that is what he doesn't like and also it appears neither do you?

If you can lump me an others together and think that's OK - then I'll do the same to you. You only get respect if you show it Grahame and for the past few days, you have had an unfortunate tone to your posts that sound goading and rude. Of course none of the innocent supporters will pick you up on it because apparently you can only be rude if you favour the guilty argument.
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Mr. Gee

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #191 on: February 25, 2015, 05:34:PM »
If you can lump me an others together and think that's OK - then I'll do the same to you. You only get respect if you show it Grahame and for the past few days, you have had an unfortunate tone to your posts that sound goading and rude. Of course none of the innocent supporters will pick you up on it because apparently you can only be rude if you favour the guilty argument.
So you DO think that then by TOTALLY agreeing with him.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 05:51:PM by ngb1066 »

Offline Caroline

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #192 on: February 25, 2015, 05:39:PM »
So you DO think that then by TOTALLY agreeing with him.

I certainly wouldn't be agreeing with you - you're showing your true colours and I won't be dragged DOWN to your level!!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 05:52:PM by ngb1066 »
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Offline maggie

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #193 on: February 25, 2015, 05:50:PM »
So you DO think that then by TOTALLY agreeing with him. xxxx.
Hi Grahame, that language is totally unacceptable whoever uses it. Please stop it!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 05:52:PM by ngb1066 »

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #194 on: February 25, 2015, 05:52:PM »
Rational thought because her testimony consists of her alleged private conversations between her and Bamber alone must look for evidence to back up her claims. There are none. Rather there is a very strong likehood that her terstimony was a tissue of lies. Why do I say that although I have stressed it many times before? Because there is a very strong case that her testimony was born out of powerful evidence that she was a woman scorned.

In a "he said, she said' you have to look at everything involved to assess who is the one who is lying including looking at who has a reason to lie and who doesn't.

What evidence favors Julie telling the truth?  For starters:

1) Evidence proving Sheila didn't kill herself or anyone else
2) Jeremy calling Julie before police
3) The fact Nevill's alleged call doesn't make sense and worse doesn't fit into the way the crime went down, the initial event was the parents being shot in the bedroom
4) Police observing Jeremy going in through windows thus confirming she had told he about doing so
5) Evidence that Jeremy staged bullets after the murders in support of his story
6) That if she wanted to just make up a story framing him she would not have made up the claim of a hitman and certainly would not have identified a person who would be able to prove her claims untrue thus would ruin the entire lie she was trying to tell
7) For Jeremy's phone call claims to be true someone had to cleverly decided to hang up the phone, leave it hung up long enough for Jeremy to hang up then to take it off the hook so no one else could call.  Not to drop the phone and just leave it there forcing Jeremy to hang up and wait several minutes for the line to clear but rather to hang up the phone, give Jeremy time to hang up the phone so the call ended  then take it back off the hook. Who would do that?  A crazy Sheila would just make Nevill drop the phone.  Why would a crazy Sheila be worried about someone calling the house?   

These are not the only things just the most significant.  there were various things she told that had some corroboration like she said he planned to use a bike and took June's bike right before the murders to his house.  But there is no need to discuss all these little details.

What supports Jeremy's claim that Sheila was lying?  All he could come up with as a motive for her lying is that she was scorned and wanted ill will done to him.  But she didn't go running to police the police went to her after she told a friend the story.  Worse if she were going to make up a story to hurt him she would simply have said he confessed he committed the murders himself not make up the hitman story.

We already know he failed to dent the evidence establishing Sheila didn't do anything and had no raitonal explanation for why he called Julie before police etc so nothing to rebut the main evidence that supports Julie's assertions that he did it.

You choose to ignore the evidence and just believe he is innocent and was framed and she lied but you have nothing at all to establish she lied or that he was framed. I'm still waiting for a defender to come up with a good explanation for the phone being taken off the hook and how the phone being taken off the hook and the alleged call by Nevill fit into the known sequence of events which is the killer sneaking into the master bedroom where June was killed and Nevill injured, then the confrontation in the kitchen then after that the kids and Sheila were killed.  It is pretty obvious the call would have to have predated the shooting int he bedroom but if that is the case how did both parents end up in the bedroom with June still in bed and hung up the phone then shortly thereafter took it off the hook and why? Why call Jeremy instead of handling the matter himself?  These questions are important ones to answer in order for Jeremy's claims to be possible.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry