Author Topic: The main prosecution forensic case  (Read 37621 times)

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Offline susan

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #105 on: February 24, 2015, 06:49:PM »
Scipio thank you for the explanation.

Offline susan

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #106 on: February 24, 2015, 06:51:PM »
David sorry I cannot help you one of the more experienced posters will I am sure. Must admit it was so bad I fell asleep whilst watching it :'(

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #107 on: February 24, 2015, 07:06:PM »
Scipio thank you for the explanation.

I left out that some people also suggest her sedation would make her more cooperative.  I don't know if that would be the case or not.  I'm more inclided to look at the compliance issue from a regular standpoint.

Someone holds a gun on you what do you do?  Do you follow orders or do you fight back and risk getting shot?  The answer depends on whether you have the opportunity to try to fight back and in your own nature.  Some people will try to fight back and some will be scared and never try even if the opportunity presents itself.  There are people who watch someone mowing down others and instead of trying to go out fighting they just sit there cowering and praying something will happen to save them. 

Jeremy could have threatened to kill the twins if she refused to comply and that could have been a strong tool to use.  Threats like that are often used by people to get others to comply.  There are already so many variables that there is no need to really look to the sedation issue that much for this particular issue.   
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Offline Alias

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2015, 07:21:PM »
She was drugged in the sense that her psychotic medication was a strong sedative.  The implication from that is she likely slept very soundly and didn't wake up until Jeremy woke her.

Sheila was in bed while her parents were shot in their bedroom.  While the scuffle in the kitchen took place it is possible she woke up, left her room and then saw June on the floor and then when Jeremy came back upstairs he encountered her and killed her before the boys.  It is just as possible she was still in bed when he came back upstairs and that he killed the boys then went and woke her up to kill her.

Killing Sheila in her room would be suggestive of her being killed by someone else just like everyone else.  It would be suggestive of the killer going bedroom to bedroom.  Killing her in a different room makes sense.  The narrative he wanted to create by killing her in the same room as June would be to suggest she killed June and then herself.  But the evidence stablishes June was the first to die not the next to last.

You can rule that one out. There was no trace or sign of Jeremy in Sheila´s room. Are you suggesting he washed up before he went and woke her up?

Other than that, I cannot imagine Sheila would not have woken up by the noise that would have been at the farm. I find it very, very unlikely.

Offline susan

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #109 on: February 24, 2015, 07:24:PM »
Alias I must admit I did find the explanation given by Scipio difficult to follow I guess none of us will ever find out what exactly did happen.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #110 on: February 24, 2015, 07:26:PM »
You can rule that one out. There was no trace or sign of Jeremy in Sheila´s room. Are you suggesting he washed up before he went and woke her up?

Other than that, I cannot imagine Sheila would not have woken up by the noise that would have been at the farm. I find it very, very unlikely.

Jeremy didn't leave a blood trail when he went back up the stairs, went into the the twins room or the master bedroom so why would you expect one in her room?

It is quite possible for her to have slept through the noise just like the boys did.  There is no way to know if she woke up and got up to investigate the noise herself or Jeremy woke her up.  Only Jeremy knows that and I don't believe he will ever talk.

 

 
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Offline susan

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #111 on: February 24, 2015, 07:29:PM »
Scipio I can go with that perhaps Jeremy did make Sheila comply by using her boys as a tool and I have read in Colin's book that Sheila was afraid of Jeremy.

Offline David1819

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2015, 07:31:PM »
You can rule that one out. There was no trace or sign of Jeremy in Sheila´s room. Are you suggesting he washed up before he went and woke her up?

Other than that, I cannot imagine Sheila would not have woken up by the noise that would have been at the farm. I find it very, very unlikely.

That's why I believe the Twins where the first to die. No one would sleep through that, As for Shelia she was on monthly antipsychotic injections, I don't know when her last recorded Injection was. However she was on this drug for four years and the dosage recently halved so considering tolerance building up over four years plus the dose recently halved, Its not going to prevent her from waking up
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 07:41:PM by david1819 »

Online lookout

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2015, 07:41:PM »
That's why I believe the Twins where the first to die. No one would sleep through that, As for Shelia she was on monthly antipsychotic injections, I don't know when her last recorded Injection was. However she was on this drug for four years and the dosage recently halved so considering tolerance building up over four years plus the dose recently halved, Its not going to prevent her form waking up





My own personal thoughts on the intramuscular injection,Haloperidol,was that it was having an adverse effect on her rather than it having the desired effect that it has on some patients. It's a very hit and miss department of medicine and what suits one doesn't necessarily mean that it suits all.
Not forgetting that Sheila should also have been taking medication to counteract the side-effects of the Haldol,but wasn't. There was no other drug in her system which meant that she hadn't been taking any of the prescription drugs which were prescribed.

Offline David1819

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2015, 07:43:PM »




My own personal thoughts on the intramuscular injection,Haloperidol,was that it was having an adverse effect on her rather than it having the desired effect that it has on some patients. It's a very hit and miss department of medicine and what suits one doesn't necessarily mean that it suits all.
Not forgetting that Sheila should also have been taking medication to counteract the side-effects of the Haldol,but wasn't. There was no other drug in her system which meant that she hadn't been taking any of the prescription drugs which were prescribed.

She had been taking Cannabis, Rumors of Cocaine use also

Offline Alias

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2015, 07:43:PM »
That's why I believe the Twins where the first to die. No one would sleep through that, As for Shelia she was on monthly antipsychotic injections, I don't know when her last recorded Injection was. However she was on this drug for four years and the dosage recently halved so considering tolerance building up over four years plus the dose recently halved, Its not going to prevent her form waking up

In reality her dose at the time was one quarter of her usual dose. The halving time of Haloperidol is 21 days - exactly the amount of time since she had gotten her last (halved) shot. (Again, expecting an essay from Skippy, we´ve been here before....)

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The only scenario of Jeremy shooting Sheila I can go with is that she woke up and that she herself made her way into the master bedroom and that Jeremy happened upon her there.
All those crazy stories of her sleeping through it all, being "led" or "carried", sleeping like a baby just aren´t likely to me.
Why would Jeremy take the chance of upsetting Sheila by leading her literally over the dead and bloodied body of her mother. That is just daft to even consider, I think.

Online lookout

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #116 on: February 24, 2015, 07:49:PM »
She had been taking Cannabis, Rumors of Cocaine use also




There were traces of cannabis found. Sheila had been a heavy smoker of cannabis in the last 12 months prior to her death. Cocaine was used at parties. She was also partial to cigars as well,as a social-worker during one of her visits had said that Sheila was smoking a cigar in the woman's presence.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #117 on: February 24, 2015, 07:55:PM »
That's why I believe the Twins where the first to die. No one would sleep through that, As for Shelia she was on monthly antipsychotic injections, I don't know when her last recorded Injection was. However she was on this drug for four years and the dosage recently halved so considering tolerance building up over four years plus the dose recently halved, Its not going to prevent her form waking up

She was only on Haldol for a few months.  She was switched to Haldol upon her 1985 hospital release.  She complained about it making her drowsy which is why it was reduced but 100MG is still a powerful dose and she was still exhibiting signs of it making her drowsy.  Some of the signs of being over sedated was her speech patterns which people observed and another they observed was she had beeing going to bed early because she it made her drowsy.  After her 100MG injection she still was going to bed early.  The weekend before the murders she left Colin's party early because she was tired and the night of the murders she went to bed early because she was tired. 

If the fear was that the noise was goign to be so great that people would wake up then the parents would be killed first because they posted the biggest threat.

There is no way the boys could have been killed first because if they had been then the number of shots fired in the master bedroom would have been less.  On TV guns have limitless bullets but in real life they do not and the number of shots fired helps piece together what happened.

If the noise in the kitchen woke Sheila up she likely would have gone to the kitchen to see what was going on. There is no evidence she did that. Nor any evidence she went to check on the boys which woudl have been another likely thing for her to do. 

There are plenty of documented cases of people not waking up when others in their house were murdered most often it is CHILDREN who don't wake up but it does happen with adults as well.  The notion they could not have slept through the gunshots which were not loud because of the moderator plus no one was shot in a room adjacent to their room combined with the kitchen being far from their room is enough that no one can say they had to have woken up.

No less than ten shots were fired in rapid succession in the master bedroom at June and Nevill.  There is no way that could have happened after 2 or more shots were used on a different victim.  The gun had to have a full magazine in it at minimum for such these 10 shots to have been fired.  That is the best indication of where the shooting commenced.

The gun had to be empty in order for things to then progress to the kitchen.

The gun was partially reloaded and 4 shots fired to kill Nevill. The magazine was fully reloaded with 8 of those 10 used on the boys and 2 on Sheila. That is how the gun was then empty. There is no way to know for sure if the boys died last or Sheila. 

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Offline David1819

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #118 on: February 24, 2015, 08:05:PM »
She was only on Haldol for a few months.  She was switched to Haldol upon her 1985 hospital release.  She complained about it making her drowsy which is why it was reduced but 100MG is still a powerful dose and she was still exhibiting signs of it making her drowsy.  Some of the signs of being over sedated was her speech patterns which people observed and another they observed was she had beeing going to bed early because she it made her drowsy.  After her 100MG injection she still was going to bed early.  The weekend before the murders she left Colin's party early because she was tired and the night of the murders she went to bed early because she was tired. 

If the fear was that the noise was goign to be so great that people would wake up then the parents would be killed first because they posted the biggest threat.

There is no way the boys could have been killed first because if they had been then the number of shots fired in the master bedroom would have been less.  On TV guns have limitless bullets but in real life they do not and the number of shots fired helps piece together what happened.

If the noise in the kitchen woke Sheila up she likely would have gone to the kitchen to see what was going on. There is no evidence she did that. Nor any evidence she went to check on the boys which woudl have been another likely thing for her to do. 

There are plenty of documented cases of people not waking up when others in their house were murdered most often it is CHILDREN who don't wake up but it does happen with adults as well.  The notion they could not have slept through the gunshots which were not loud because of the moderator plus no one was shot in a room adjacent to their room combined with the kitchen being far from their room is enough that no one can say they had to have woken up.

No less than ten shots were fired in rapid succession in the master bedroom at June and Nevill.  There is no way that could have happened after 2 or more shots were used on a different victim.  The gun had to have a full magazine in it at minimum for such these 10 shots to have been fired.  That is the best indication of where the shooting commenced.

The gun had to be empty in order for things to then progress to the kitchen.

The gun was partially reloaded and 4 shots fired to kill Nevill. The magazine was fully reloaded with 8 of those 10 used on the boys and 2 on Sheila. That is how the gun was then empty. There is no way to know for sure if the boys died last or Sheila.

I don't believe that would be the case if Jeremy done it. I will quote my theory as I previously posted

"I'm convinced this would be the case with Jeremy if he done it, He would have killed them all fairly efficiently and once setup and completed the staged suicide killing Shelia last he would have re-loaded and fired more shots into Neville, June and the Twins to make it look more sloppy and poorly executed like a ill minded person would have done it.

I can't believe for one minute that the kids would have slept through the shooting and screaming and whatever happened down the staircase and in the kitchen its not feasible.

The 25 shots if Jeremy done it would be a result of him making it look like he didn't do it. He also admitted that he trashed up the caravan park office so it would appear it was not him.

That's my guess"

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The main prosecution forensic case
« Reply #119 on: February 24, 2015, 08:09:PM »
In reality her dose at the time was one quarter of her usual dose. The halving time of Haloperidol is 21 days - exactly the amount of time since she had gotten her last (halved) shot. (Again, expecting an essay from Skippy, we´ve been here before....)

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It wasn't 1/4 her usual dose.  That is pathetic spinning even from you.  But you conveniently ignore the medical evidence that there is little effective difference between 50MG and 100MG and no advantage gained in excess of 100MG and that it is not even safe to administer above 100MG for any length of time.  Ferguson overdosed her base don out current medical knowledge.  You and other Jeremy supporters (yeah I know you don't want to admit you are one but too bad your post demonstrate you are your admission is not required) choose to ignore our current medical knowledge ot try to pretend her medicine dosage might not have been sufficient.  That is all it is- PRETENSE.

The exact issue though is the side effects of the medication and her own doctor said she was overmedicated.  You want to ignore that too because it is inconvenient to what you WANT to believe.

The only scenario of Jeremy shooting Sheila I can go with is that she woke up and that she herself made her way into the master bedroom and that Jeremy happened upon her there.
All those crazy stories of her sleeping through it all, being "led" or "carried", sleeping like a baby just aren´t likely to me.
Why would Jeremy take the chance of upsetting Sheila by leading her literally over the dead and bloodied body of her mother. That is just daft to even consider, I think.
 

It's not crazy at all that she could have slept through it.  The boys slept through it and there are plenty of documented cases of people sleeping through murders.

Killing her in her own room would be suggestive of her being killed in her bedroom by someone else just like everyone else.  It would be suspicious not supportive of murder suicide.  Killing her in a room with other victims makes the most sense to do for someone staging a a scene.

Your refusal to face something as possible doesn't somehow render it impossible. It just means you close your eyes to the possibility. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry