Author Topic: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge  (Read 37893 times)

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Offline gringo

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #510 on: March 12, 2015, 12:14:AM »
You're arguing for arguing sake. I honestly don't care if she meant 50/50, 40/60 or just doesn't have a clue. But perhaps you should let her speak for herself?
   My initial post was in response to scipio and was to point out that he himself makes assumptions to reach his conclusions whilst criticising others for doing so. The only reason I raised the issue of the 50/50 stance was to show that this was an assumption on his part.
    You then supported scipio's assumption as being fact by saying, "I think it's reasonable to assume that Patti meant 50/50, given that she said we can't tell if the call happened or not ( got to be one or the other 50/50 )".
    You now suggest that you, "don't care if she meant 50/50 or 40/60 or doesn't have a clue", yet previously you requested that Patti cleared it up by explaining, in order that, "we wouldn't need to assume".
    As I said, my initial point was to show that scipio himself, and then later you, were making assumptions; something which you have both confirmed yourselves now anyway.

Offline Caroline

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #511 on: March 12, 2015, 12:30:AM »
   My initial post was in response to scipio and was to point out that he himself makes assumptions to reach his conclusions whilst criticising others for doing so. The only reason I raised the issue of the 50/50 stance was to show that this was an assumption on his part.
    You then supported scipio's assumption as being fact by saying, "I think it's reasonable to assume that Patti meant 50/50, given that she said we can't tell if the call happened or not ( got to be one or the other 50/50 )".
    You now suggest that you, "don't care if she meant 50/50 or 40/60 or doesn't have a clue", yet previously you requested that Patti cleared it up by explaining, in order that, "we wouldn't need to assume".
    As I said, my initial point was to show that scipio himself, and then later you, were making assumptions; something which you have both confirmed yourselves now anyway.

Oh for gods sake  give it a rest!  ::)  Let Patti answer for herself if she wants to - personally I couldn't give a rats!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 12:32:AM by Caroline »
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #512 on: March 12, 2015, 12:30:AM »
If Jeremy committed the crime do you think he would have hade a better chance of getting away with it if he just left WHF didn't call anyone, then just waited for the farmworkers to discover the bodies?

Obviously a better chance of getting away with it than by committing the errors he did and then notifying police himself.

He still would have been faced with a serious problem when Julie cracked, had he both not told Julie anything and made the bodies be found naturally there would have been far less evidence against him.  putting the moderator away still would have been a problem though in that it would revealed an attempt was made to frame Sheila by leaving the gun on her but she can't have done it.

An inept framing of Sheila still hurts.  He would have needed to stage it as a break-in if not framing Sheila to have any real chance of getting away with it and that has its own pitfalls because killing the twins in their beds would not be consistent with a break-in.  He would have needed to get the victims up and then to shoot them.  Burglars don't go room to room shooting people in their sleep- people sleeping are not witnesses. Plus a burglar is not going to be likely to use a gun from the house to kill everyone they would bring their own weapon.

Without Julie's testimony and without Jeremy calling police you would have evidence that someone decided to assassinate the family and tried to frame Sheila.  If the moderator was left on the gun and it was no where near Sheila so no attempt to frame her then they would simply know it was an assassination.  The only one they knew who would profit from that is Jeremy and he had no alibi so motive and opportunity. He would be a prime suspect bu in some instances they don't try you with such evidence hey wait hoping to develop more down the road.  That could be sufficient to convict but might not be enough it really depends on the jury you get.  It is far less evidence than they had with him calling police so definitely would be a better position to be in though it is still somewhat risky. Obviously if he didn't attempt to frame Sheila

If it were successfully framed as a break-in then it is unlikely he could be convicted.  If he screwed up making it look like a break-in then he is not in a good position because who would have a motive to kill everyone and make it look like a break-in?  Only Jeremy. The best way to make it look like a break-in would be to obtain a different weapon to use than the one from the house and wake the twins up and shoot them out of bed.     

When you add Julie's testimony to the mix no scenario is very good but surely it is better without him admitting he knew about the murders and botching the frame job of Sheila because then Julie's testimony has some validation.

Julie testifies he was planning to kill them when they were all staying there for the inheritance and he called her to say tonight was the night and admitted he was responsible.  It is suggested the murderer tried to frame Sheila by hiding the moderator and leaving the gun on her.  Who would want to assassinate them and try to frame Sheila?  Only Jeremy.  Are things great for Jeremy?  No but with him calling police and thus establishing he knew about the crimes it is even worse. 

Things are best for Jeremy if it were successfully staged like a break-in or successfully staged like Sheila did it because then there are other possible killers besides him.

If you spend a long time telling someone you want to kill someone- then don't kill such person. If you want to kill someone don't tell others about it.  When you do you are setting yourself up for failure. 

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #513 on: March 12, 2015, 12:42:AM »
What do you make of the of evidence that suggests it may not have been used?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/04/jeremy-bamber-murders-ballistics-challenge

I'm also very suspicious that no photograph exists of the 1/4 inch long blood flake, plus the tests in 1999 couldn't find any trace of Shelia and also found the DNA of an unknown male how did that get in there?

The tests in 1999 were simply tests for the presence of blood no blood was detected because the lab already removed all visible blood in 1985 and in 1986 defense expert Lincoln removed all microscopic traces of blood that had been left behind by the lab. The DNA tests done in 2000 found Sheila's DNA, June's DNA and most likely the DNA of at least one of the twins.  In addition  there were up to 10 minor DNA contributors.  There was DNA of at least 4 people and could have been as many as 15.  How does non-blood based DNA get in a moderator?  Through contamination of course.  LCN testing is so sensitive that there are very specific protocols in place with respect to evidence collection, processing the evidence and evidence handling and storage afterwards in case retesting is needed.  None of these protocols existed in 1985.  Lincoln could have deposited DNA of every victim in there while he was processing it and the lab could as well.  These were tiny DNA samples easily spread.  Nevill could have contaminated it when he took it apart.  The jurors could have contaminated the list is long.  If the DNA had been blood based that would be different because contaminating the moderator with blood by accident is not something that the lab would have been able to do, nor could the jury have done that. 

That still would not clear up whose DNA was removed in 1985 by the lab and 1986 by Lincoln only DNA testing the blood they removed could answer that. 




Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

guest2181

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #514 on: March 12, 2015, 01:01:AM »
Inavertently!  :'( That was me, so if I make a good point, it is per definition inadvertently.

Of course it was a good point - advertently. What super-idiot shoots someone twice, then proceeds to stage it as a suicide, crawls out a window, locks it from outside (never heard of such a thing anywhere else, but never mind, it didn´t have to be proven.....), then calls the cops with a made up claim about a phone call, which excludes anyone else but you or the victim you shot twice and staged as a suicide - what massive moron would do that?
In fact i made a brilliant point, if I may say so myself!

I was being thick and have just understood your meaning.  :-[

Inadvertently,  was in reference to Adams post and not yours. Adam inadvertently made a good point.

It had nothing to do with your point.  :D

Offline David1819

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #515 on: March 12, 2015, 01:18:AM »
The tests in 1999 were simply tests for the presence of blood no blood was detected because the lab already removed all visible blood in 1985 and in 1986 defense expert Lincoln removed all microscopic traces of blood that had been left behind by the lab. The DNA tests done in 2000 found Sheila's DNA, June's DNA and most likely the DNA of at least one of the twins.  In addition  there were up to 10 minor DNA contributors.  There was DNA of at least 4 people and could have been as many as 15.  How does non-blood based DNA get in a moderator?  Through contamination of course.  LCN testing is so sensitive that there are very specific protocols in place with respect to evidence collection, processing the evidence and evidence handling and storage afterwards in case retesting is needed.  None of these protocols existed in 1985.  Lincoln could have deposited DNA of every victim in there while he was processing it and the lab could as well.  These were tiny DNA samples easily spread.  Nevill could have contaminated it when he took it apart.  The jurors could have contaminated the list is long.  If the DNA had been blood based that would be different because contaminating the moderator with blood by accident is not something that the lab would have been able to do, nor could the jury have done that. 

That still would not clear up whose DNA was removed in 1985 by the lab and 1986 by Lincoln only DNA testing the blood they removed could answer that.

Where did you get that from?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 01:19:AM by david1819 »

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #516 on: March 12, 2015, 01:40:AM »
Why not burn the whole place down after he shoots them all?

That would give away they were all murdered and the prime suspects of burning a place down is someone who knows the victims. The whole point of framing Sheila was so that they would not know they were all murdered by someone outside the house who was still alive. 

The only realistic chance of him getting away with it would be a decent framing of Sheila or decent staging of a break-in which I have already addressed some of the complications regarding.  Making up crap to explain away the killing of 1 person is one thing, killing an entire family is quite another.   

If he had removed the moderator before shooting Sheila and left it in the bedroom so it looked like she took it off before killing herself, had not staged too many bullets and Julie had not ratted him out then even though some  were suspicious about the lack of evidence on Sheila the prosecutor probably would have still given Jeremy the benefit of the doubt and not ended up trying him.  Had he additionally planted evidence on her body so she wasn't so clean then for sure they would have not tried him.

His idea of framing Sheila wasn't bad he just executed it poorly and made a gigantic mistake in telling Julie all about his plans.

It is a good thing that executing a plan like that is not easy and has so many pitfalls or we would be less safe.

 


Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #517 on: March 12, 2015, 01:43:AM »
Its all gone very quiet of late.  Does anyone know who is representing Bamber now?

Personally I don't think there will be any new evidence to make any new submissions... :-\

The only recent news had been about attorneys representing the legalistic human rights arguments not anything about a substantive appeal.  NGB mentioned a new submission being worked on but said the y would be working on them in private and not providing the public with their arguments like in the past. 

Thus we have no way to know what they are working on let alone if they will ever finish putting it together and actually submit it.

 


Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #518 on: March 12, 2015, 10:38:AM »
Its all gone very quiet of late.  Does anyone know who is representing Bamber now?

Personally I don't think there will be any new evidence to make any new submissions... :-\





Patti I'm sure there was a name on here for the latest representative for Jeremy. A lawyer who also has the help with others. There was also mention of new " exciting " evidence ( Jeremy's words ) so something must have come to light.
Would anyone think it worth bothering about if they were 100% sure of his guilt ? I don't think so.

John

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #519 on: March 12, 2015, 11:14:AM »
The only recent news had been about attorneys representing the legalistic human rights arguments not anything about a substantive appeal.  NGB mentioned a new submission being worked on but said the y would be working on them in private and not providing the public with their arguments like in the past. 

Thus we have no way to know what they are working on let alone if they will ever finish putting it together and actually submit it.

I don't believe the CCRC will even accept any new submissions because they did a very thorough final review the last time and decided even then that a referral to the CoA was a waste of time.

There aren't many who still believe Bamber's bleatings and that in itself is a magnificent result for justice. In the end and according to the very extensive evidence Jeremy Bamber was indeed guilty as charged!

« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 11:18:AM by John »

Offline lookout

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #520 on: March 12, 2015, 11:43:AM »
Pity it wasn't queried about the " mistakes " made during phone conversations that the police had received,i.e, your sister-----------my daughter. Age 26/27 ?

If two phone-calls didn't happen,and it was a mistake on behalf of EP,wouldn't anyone ask themselves how many more mistakes the police made ?

Why would Jeremy have given the right age one minute,then the wrong age in the following call if it was he who'd allegedly called from WHF ? Daughter/Sister would have fitted,but not the different ages.

guest154

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #521 on: March 12, 2015, 11:58:AM »
For any honest person "‘message passed to CD by son of Mr Bamber after the phone went dead, Mr Bamber has a collection of shotguns and .410’s’" would be enough to rule out a call from Neville, the document CLEARLY states it isn't.

Offline lookout

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #522 on: March 12, 2015, 12:14:PM »
You might be happy,but I'm not-------simple as that. Depends whose side you're on,doesn't it ?

Offline Jan

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #523 on: March 12, 2015, 12:27:PM »
Heck, how can I answer that, most of that is derived from your own issues that you may take if you were to consider JB to be guilty.

Why he protests his innocence,  I don't know, maybe he doesn't want to acknowledge what he's done, or perhaps he values his notorioty. Or maybe he has nothing better to do?
I honestly have no idea.

At least you are honest and don't try and invent some scenario to cover his behaviour or write a lecture ;D

Offline lookout

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #524 on: March 12, 2015, 12:30:PM »
Exactly just what " adequate " evidence was provided by EP to the case ? Think about it. Most of their findings from the morning of the 7th was stashed away never to be seen again,whereby it WOULD have been of assistance to Jeremy's defence team. Was that a fair advantage to the case ? Certainly not.

What of all the character references.? What happened to those ? Are they hidden away,or burned ? Just because of the sheer bias of opinion that Freddie was a foreigner,an ex-girlfriend,Suzie was a divorced mother who Jeremy lived with and Collins a homosexual. It WOULDN'T be permitted today. Not PC.!
These people had been classed as unsuitable !! Was this fair ?

Yet word was accepted from those who DIDN'T know Jeremy or his immediate family. How very convenient. Was this fair ?