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[Patti]

THis is a perfect example of precisely what I was saying about ineffective Jeremy advocates.  All you are doing is closing your eyes to the case made against Jeremy.  Aside from the fact that Appeal Court decisions, books and even postings from various people have laid out the case many times I have posted numerous threads that lay out the case quite clearly.

I noted the case has two different prongs.  Prong 1 established that Sheila didn't load a gun, didn't shoot anyone else, didn't beat anyone else and can't have killed herself.  Someone else was there who killed them and planted the gun on Sheila's body to frame her and then left.

Prong 2 established that Jeremy was that person who did it and a very large part of the evidence was the fact that Jeremy knew about the murders and claimed the reason why he learned about the trouble was because of Nevill called him to say Sheila was going crazy and had a gun.  Since Sheila didn't commit the murders obviously she didn't have the gun. Why would Nevill call Jeremy and falsely blame Sheila?  This means the call is not credible and that Jeremy must be the killer.  Even his own lawyers conceded this.  Additional evidence against Jeremy was provided by Julie's testimony as well as evidence he  staged ammunition in the kitchen after the murders and other lies he told in an effort to implicate Sheila.
There was eve evidence he called Julie before police and lied about the order after realizing it looked bad to admit he called her first though he should not have called her at all. 

Pretending there was no evidence Jeremy was involved is a waste of time the only way to establish his innocence is to refute the evidence that established Sheila didn't do anything. The defense needed to establish it was reasonably likely that Sheila did it and that Julie was reasonably likely to have been lying.

 

 

Unfortunately I am not as tunneled as you when there could be an alternative Skip.  My eyes are wide open, if fact they go beyond wide they are vastly open. 

You have noted eh? Well I make notes too and until I am convinced otherwise I shall keep to my opinion and no matter what epilogue you write I wont be budging until I am supplied with some sort of forensic evidence or official documents.

Its my opinion that no phone call can be proved one way or the other and to say it did or it did not happen is stalemate, for its unsafe to categorically say one way or the other.  On the other hand its a case of what you and I believe.

Evidence speaks, assumptions go no where.

[John]

  Were you not aware that she was ill, then, ?
 In Sheila's mind latterly,she thought that everyone was colluding against her to take away her children. Her ex-husband,even her father who she once relied on for support.Everyone was projecting evil,in her mind. She saw her friend Freddie as the Devil. As for her mother,the relationship was always a bad one.

How is it you're so certain of Jeremy's guilt ? Because everyone else says so ??

So what if she had a history of mild mental illness.  Many thousands of people suffer the same ailment but they don't go out and shoot their entire family.  The person who did this crime planned it meticulously from start to finish, it was not a spur of the moment madness by a young woman who hated firearms and was in any event unfamiliar with such a weapon.

[Caroline]

Of course that is obvious - but show me where someone has proved it did not happen?

It might seem unlikely - but it is still possible that it did happen because the fact is none of us know what happened - not 100%

So could the call from NB to Jeremy have happened ? Yes

Could someone have forced him to make the call - remote possibility .

If the call did not happen - of course he is guilty .

If police had the proof it did not happen I am sure they would have produced it by now  because it would have saved them a lot of hassle over the years. So I don't see that we are missing the "obvious"

I don't believe the call happened and so in my view, he made it up which makes him guilty.  The phone call (far from being 'utter rubbish or not important) is incredibly important and anyone who doesn't understand that - hasn't really understood the specifics of he case and that's a fact!

[lookout]

 Was JM telling the truth ?

[Caroline]

Was JM telling the truth ?

Only she and Jeremy know that.

[John]

I don't believe the call happened and so in my view, he made it up which makes him guilty.  The phone call (far from being 'utter rubbish or not important) is incredibly important and anyone who doesn't understand that - hasn't really understood the specifics of he case and that's a fact!

Had Nevill phoned Jeremy and was forced at gunpoint to end the call then Jeremy would have heard Sheila in the background.  After all and according to lookout, she was so ill that she didn't know what she was doing yet compos mentis enough to control the situation to her own liking.

I think NOT!

[John]

Was JM telling the truth ?

She had to!   In any event much of what she said in her statement was backed up by others who had experienced the exact same behaviour.  The police would never have used Julie's evidence if they thought for a minute that she was making it all up.  Her admission that she was involved in the Osea Caravan Park break-in and robbery went a very long way to enhancing her credibility.  Add to this the fact that she came clean over the cheque fraud and the drug selling and it becomes abundantly clear that she was perceived as a reliable witness, something which was later borne out in the courtroom.

[susan]

Hello Maggie  I quite agree nobody can prove one way or the other whether the alleged phone call did take place.  I have always found it so strange that he phoned Julie first and she told him to go back to bed then he spent ages looking for the phone number of the local police station surely in view of what his Father had told him he would have either gone round to the farm at speed to see what was going on or he would have used the 999 facility.  Guess we all base things on what we would have done.

[scipio_usmc]

Of course that is obvious - but show me where someone has proved it did not happen?

It might seem unlikely - but it is still possible that it did happen because the fact is none of us know what happened - not 100%

So could the call from NB to Jeremy have happened ? Yes

Could someone have forced him to make the call - remote possibility .

If the call did not happen - of course he is guilty .

If police had the proof it did not happen I am sure they would have produced it by now  because it would have saved them a lot of hassle over the years. So I don't see that we are missing the "obvious"

I already posted how multiple evaluations of the phone call issue.  The evaluations reveal it is not reasonably likely that the call occurred.  You hide your head in the sand pretending there is a reasonable chance it occurred because you are biased.   An objective look at the issue though proves you to be wrong:

1) Nevill would have no reason to call Jeremy-
A) The evidence establishes Sheila was doing the horrible thins claimed
B) Jeremy would not be able to help clam Sheila down if she had been going crazy he would simply have exacerbated the situation so why would Nevill call him?
C) Nevill would be able to physically handle Sheila himself and if he needed to take physical action and hf he did need help he would have enlisted June.  She was already there.  Time is of the essence if he needed to act. The time to wake Jeremy and for him to arrive would be too late
D) If things were really bad he would have armed himself the air rifle would have not been fatal so he had that choice, the shotgun and other weapons to use
2) It is not credible that Nevill would call Jeremy after Sheila began shooting people.  Had she begun shooting he would have known it could not be "kept within the family" and would have known that ambulances needed to be summoned. Moreover, he would have told Jeremy to come in harms way to be shot along with the rest of them.  Also he would have told Jeremy that she had opened fire and that medical help was needed. The claim he said she was going crazy and had the gun clearly suggests she had it but hadn't used it yet.
3)Nevill would not have had the opportunity to call Jeremy before the shooting began
A) It is neither credible that Sheila would have allowed her father to be alone in the kitchen so he could phone police, grab weapons or run out the door nor that June would stay in bed during all this
B) The bedroom had no phone in it (because Jeremy removed it) so a call could not have been made from there
C) It is not credible that Sheila caught Nevill on the phone and instead of shooting him she hung the phone up, took it back off the hook then marched him upstairs so she could kill both of her parents together.
4) Nevill would not have been able to call Jeremy after the shooting began
A) By the time Nevill got downstairs to the kitchen where the phone was he was injured in a manner that precluded him from speaking
B) The event began with the killer going into the master bedroom and opening fire on both parents.  There would not have been any opportunity for Nevill to call Jeremy from the kitchen before the shooting began.
5) If Jeremy truly received the call he claimed to have received then he would have either rushed over or dialed 999 right away.  He called Julie before calling police though he had no good reason to call her at all. He lied about this and falsely claimed he called police first.  He didn't call police right away he just lied and said he did.  He never called 999 at all mind you he took the time to look up police station numbers. After getting no answer at the first station because it was so late he decided to look up another instead of calling 999.  When asked why he did his he claimed he didn't know dialing 999 would be faster.  He didn't know dialing 999 would be faster than looking up numbers? NOT CREDIBLE  His other actions that night were also inconsistent with honestly receiving the call claimed.
6) Julie's testimony that he told her his plan involved making up receiving a phonecall from Nevill and her testimony he didn't receive any call and was responsible for the murders.

You ignore all this because you don't want to face it just like you make excuses to pretend Jeremy isn't the one who replaced the kitchen phone with the bedroom phone then hid it.  The excuses you come up with are NOT CREDIBLE and do not amount to a reasonable likelihood that Nevill phoned Jeremy.


 

[lookout]

So what if she had a history of mild mental illness.  Many thousands of people suffer the same ailment but they don't go out and shoot their entire family.  The person who did this crime planned it meticulously from start to finish, it was not a spur of the moment madness by a young woman who hated firearms and was in any event unfamiliar with such a weapon.

Mild mental illness ? Thousands of people don't tell their GP that their children could harm or have sex with them.Get real----------Sheila had a psychotic illness which is by no means mild.She was also a self-harmer,and had previously suffered anorexia.
Sheila possibly suffered post-partum psychosis after her abortions/miscarriages/live births,which went untreated,or was passed off as a depressive illness after giving birth,again which wasn't treated,then would in turn manifest itself into something more severe-------------which it did. A diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia was made which WASN'T mild,and her condition was exacerbated by snorting cocaine and smoking cannabis,heavily for the last 12 months of her life.
June too had been diagnosed with religious psychosis,a condition which was harder to contain than Sheila's illness.

[scipio_usmc]

Unfortunately I am not as tunneled as you when there could be an alternative Skip.  My eyes are wide open, if fact they go beyond wide they are vastly open. 

You have noted eh? Well I make notes too and until I am convinced otherwise I shall keep to my opinion and no matter what epilogue you write I wont be budging until I am supplied with some sort of forensic evidence or official documents.

Its my opinion that no phone call can be proved one way or the other and to say it did or it did not happen is stalemate, for its unsafe to categorically say one way or the other.  On the other hand its a case of what you and I believe.

Evidence speaks, assumptions go no where.

You are ignoring the evidence in this case and instead making ridiculous assumptions.  You should take your own advice and stop making assumptions and start paying attention the evidence.  My tunnel vision is to actually take the evidence into account INCLUDING the evidence that establishes the killer walked into the master bedroom shot June in bed and then shot Nevill 4 times, the gun was empty then they struggled over the weapon before the killer managed to gain sole control and beat Nevill unconscious...

You say I am making assumption by relying on the various pieces of evidence that establish this is what happened.  You want to ignore the evidence and make ridiculous assumptions that make it possible for Jeremy to be innocent.

If you want to establish his innocence then you need to refute evidence not just make up the claim that the evidence people are citing is simply unsupported allegations.  What is cited is more than just unsupported allegations it is things supported by credible evidence.

[John]

Mild mental illness ? Thousands of people don't tell their GP that their children could harm or have sex with them.Get real----------Sheila had a psychotic illness which is by no means mild.She was also a self-harmer,and had previously suffered anorexia.
Sheila possibly suffered post-partum psychosis after her abortions/miscarriages/live births,which went untreated,or was passed off as a depressive illness after giving birth,again which wasn't treated,then would in turn manifest itself into something more severe-------------which it did. A diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia was made which WASN'T mild,and her condition was exacerbated by snorting cocaine and smoking cannabis,heavily for the last 12 months of her life.
June too had been diagnosed with religious psychosis,a condition which was harder to contain than Sheila's illness.

She was in recovery so let's hear no more bullshit lookout.  Sheila was looking forward to a new beginning with her family, a new beginning which was a very big threat to Jeremy Bamber.  All of a sudden he was about to lose a huge chunk of his inheritance so his hand was very much forced.  What better opportunity did he have to get rid of them all at once? ...coincidence?  Hardly!

Remember the pills he was going to use on them?   How he was going to burn down the house but thought better of it when he realised that all those antiques would also burn.  If anyone had a mental illness I fear you can lay that particular affliction at the feet of Jeremy Bamber.

[Patti]

You are ignoring the evidence in this case and instead making ridiculous assumptions.  You should take your own advice and stop making assumptions and start paying attention the evidence.  My tunnel vision is to actually take the evidence into account INCLUDING the evidence that establishes the killer walked into the master bedroom shot June in bed and then shot Nevill 4 times, the gun was empty then they struggled over the weapon before the killer managed to gain sole control and beat Nevill unconscious...

You say I am making assumption by relying on the various pieces of evidence that establish this is what happened.  You want to ignore the evidence and make ridiculous assumptions that make it possible for Jeremy to be innocent.

If you want to establish his innocence then you need to refute evidence not just make up the claim that the evidence people are citing is simply unsupported allegations.  What is cited is more than just unsupported allegations it is things supported by credible evidence.

What are my ridiculous assumptions? List them!

[Jane]

Mild mental illness ? Thousands of people don't tell their GP that their children could harm or have sex with them.Get real----------Sheila had a psychotic illness which is by no means mild.She was also a self-harmer,and had previously suffered anorexia.
Sheila possibly suffered post-partum psychosis after her abortions/miscarriages/live births,which went untreated,or was passed off as a depressive illness after giving birth,again which wasn't treated,then would in turn manifest itself into something more severe-------------which it did. A diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia was made which WASN'T mild,and her condition was exacerbated by snorting cocaine and smoking cannabis,heavily for the last 12 months of her life.
June too had been diagnosed with religious psychosis,a condition which was harder to contain than Sheila's illness.

I know that both anorexia and self harm have previously been hinted at but there doesn't seem to be proof of either. Self harmers don't usually put their fists through windows -a blade does a good enough job- although those feeling frustrated and in a foul temper might.

[lookout]

She was in recovery so let's hear no more bullshit lookout.  Sheila was looking forward to a new beginning with her family, a new beginning which was a very big threat to Jeremy Bamber.  All of a sudden he was about to lose a huge chunk of his inheritance so his hand was forced.

Go on,resort to swearing.Your sort do when they're losing the argument. Pathetic.

Recovering ? Looking forward to a new beginning with her family ? Where've you been ?
Sheila had deteriorated as I've already stated----------it's what was written in the hospital report. Her medication,intramuscularly had been halved,but her other medication hadn't been adjusted in conjunction with the reduced Haldol,so that was a big mistake in itself. Not that she'd been taking any !

There was no threat to Jeremy's future at all.He didn't have a care in the world,good job,good wages,a rent-free home,girls falling over him.No wonder he didn't know what went on.Does a 24 year old want to know about illnesses,etc ? No ! Not in my books he wouldn't. Jeremy was doing what all 24 year olds do.

Jeremy wasn't bothered about any inheritance at all.Only those who've gained were bothered !!