Author Topic: Human blood in the silencer:  (Read 26545 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #135 on: February 21, 2015, 11:15:AM »
 Sounds like the only one with common sense,Jan.

Offline Jan

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #136 on: February 21, 2015, 11:34:AM »
bump :)

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #137 on: February 21, 2015, 03:54:PM »
No it wasn't. The results were inconclusive. In other words the tests were completely useless.

Her DNA was found inside.  The prosecution expert said her DNA was inside.  The defense expert said it could have been her DNA but there is a chance it wasn't.  The prosecution expert basis was: " Seventeen of the twenty bands attributable to Sheila Caffell had been detected in DNA from the internal swabbings. Random chance would have suggested thirteen common bands would be found and hence since there was significantly more than thirteen, it provided some support for the DNA of Sheila Caffell being in the moderator. However, Miss Groombridge was unable to perform any sort of statistical evaluation"

The COA gave the defense the benefit of the doubt and went with their conclusion of maybe it was Sheila's maybe it wasn't. They did so because it didn't matter if it was her DNA or not to reach the conclusion they did which is that the DNA tests failed to evaluate the blood that was removed in 1985 and 1986 which is the only thing that matters.

17 of 20 DNA markers from our standpoint is enough to know it was Sheila's DNA.  Her DNA was found not on the baffles but rather on the walls of the moderator. The defense and prosecution didn't swab the walls so it is possible Sheila's blood was still there.  June's DNA was found in the same concentration throughout the 3 baffle samples which means someone who took those baffles apart transferred minute amounts of her DNA to the baffles. That could have been anyone from Nevill to the lab or defense expert Lincoln to the jury. Sheila's DNA could have been deposited by contamination as well though it is odd that it would be spread to the walls but not baffles if her DNA was the result of contamination.



 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #138 on: February 21, 2015, 04:02:PM »
 AK1 was present,no human blood--------rabbits,chickens,etc.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #139 on: February 21, 2015, 04:07:PM »
when Lincoln went to the lab he said it Could have got in by trickling in .

He said that the blood could have gotten on 8 baffles by trickling in?  If he actually said that then the defense would have used him at trial to make such claim and he would have been crushed on cross examination because the claim is nonsense.  The defense didn't make any mention anywhere of him saying such. Post proof he determined that the blood could have gotten on the 8 baffles he found the blood on by it trickling in.  The crap you try to spin for such a proposition should be a hoot.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #140 on: February 21, 2015, 04:27:PM »
AK1 was present,no human blood--------rabbits,chickens,etc.

You and David keep making this pathetic claim.  Evidence has been presented time and again proving you to be wrong so at this point either you are too biased to face the truth, too dishonest to admit the truth or too clueless to understand the truth.

The lab found human blood on the outside of the moderator but the quantity of blood was too small to effectively test the blood type. It was a few tiny particles of high velocity spatter.  It tested positive as human blood.

Inside the lab removed a large quantity of blood from the baffles, they removed all visible blood.  They tested a flake as well as a swabbing from the upper baffle plates.  Both came back as human group A blood.  In addition the flake had the AK1 enzyme so was consistent with Sheila's blood not June's. 

From the 2002 COA decision:

"No questions were asked at trial of Mr Hayward to establish what part of the blood he had tested. The position was, however, known to the defence through their own expert Dr Lincoln. Dr Lincoln had seen the evidential material upon which the group testing results were based and agreed with the conclusions. He recorded that evidence in the course of his report of 19 September 1986. He said that Mr Hayward had "found a flake of blood trapped under the first or second baffle plate" and that it was this flake that was tested and produced the groupings A, EAP BA, AK1, Hp2.1 upon which reliance was placed by the prosecution. Dr Lincoln further recorded: "Mr Hayward states that he could detect visible staining on the "upper baffle plates" and that he swabbed these plates so that the blood was taken onto cotton material which could subsequently be used in grouping tests. On this material Mr Hayward successfully determined the ABO and EAP groups and showed the blood to be groups A, EAP BA."
This finding from the swabbing of the upper baffle plates was thus consistent with blood from either June Bamber or Sheila Caffell or even a combination of blood from the two of them but not in any way from blood from Nevill Bamber or Nicholas Caffell.

We have set out at paragraphs 75 to 80 a summary of the evidence at trial relating to the scientific examination of the moderator. The critical part of that evidence was the analysis of the flake of dried blood found inside the sound moderator. The evidence was given by Mr Hayward, a biologist who was working at the Forensic Science Laboratory at the time of the examination although he was in private practice by the date of trial. In his evidence he described how he had found "a considerable amount of blood" inside the moderator deposited in the spaces to the sides of the baffles around the edge of the silencer. He was asked if he had tested "any" of that blood. He said that he had and that it was human blood. He said that he had obtained grouping reactions for group A, EAP BA, AK I, Hp 2-1. He had done a PGM grouping test but it gave negative results. He said that these grouping results were consistent with the blood coming from Sheila Caffell but not solely from any of the others who had been shot.

In dealing with this evidence, the defence were limited by the evidence available from their own expert. They called no such evidence at trial but the material that they had obtained pre-trial has been disclosed in the course of this appeal. The defence had instructed Dr Patrick Lincoln, whose expertise in such matters was well known. On 29 April 1986, he visited the forensic science laboratory and examined the relevant material. He carried out tests on all seventeen baffles. The first eight plates all gave weak or very weak positive reactions for blood. There was no blood clearly visible to the naked eye and Dr Lincoln concluded that "such findings could be consistent with an item having been previously swabbed by a forensic scientist to remove blood stains for testing". The other nine plates "did not produce any evidence for the presence of blood". He agreed with Mr Hayward's conclusion that the combination of blood groups revealed in his testing of the inside of the moderator could have come solely from Sheila Caffell but did not come from any one of the other individuals"

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.html

It is well known that the lab tested 2 samples of blood from the moderator. It is well known that the lab found the baffle swabbing was group A blood and that the flake was group A blood that had the AK1 enzyme so was consistent with Sheila's blood not June's. It is well known defense expert Lincoln agreed with the findings.

When you deny this you look like a fool or liar.  I could simply tell you to repeat the claims so you look foolish but I am trying to help you so that you don't make such silly claims.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline David1819

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #141 on: February 21, 2015, 04:35:PM »
You and David keep making this pathetic claim.  Evidence has been presented time and again proving you to be wrong so at this point either you are too biased to face the truth, too dishonest to admit the truth or too clueless to understand the truth.


When you deny this you look like a fool or liar.  I could simply tell you to repeat the claims so you look foolish but I am trying to help you so that you don't make such silly claims.

The fact that you have to resort to insults skippy only proves that you cannot prove anything. To make these statements is laughable as you probably have the worst reputation on this forum
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 04:39:PM by david1819 »

Offline Jan

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #142 on: February 21, 2015, 04:36:PM »
He said that the blood could have gotten on 8 baffles by trickling in?  If he actually said that then the defense would have used him at trial to make such claim and he would have been crushed on cross examination because the claim is nonsense.  The defense didn't make any mention anywhere of him saying such. Post proof he determined that the blood could have gotten on the 8 baffles he found the blood on by it trickling in.  The crap you try to spin for such a proposition should be a hoot.

yes he did say it could - not did - could - its in his notes in his visit.

Its his notes, not my crap - and as you have been so rude - do one - and find it yourself. Its out there.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #143 on: February 21, 2015, 04:45:PM »
yes he did say it could - not did - could - its in his notes in his visit.

Its his notes, not my crap - and as you have been so rude - do one - and find it yourself. Its out there.

You are the proponent of the claim so you produce the evidence.  Your evidence always falls short of the claim you always misunderstand or intentionally misrepresent what people claim to suit your agenda and that obviously is the case with this because had he assessed that blood could have simply trickled in and dried on 8 baffles then the defense would have used his testimony to try to rebut that the blood go there as a result of drawback.  Indeed the defense tried to suggest that the blood got in there while Nevill was beaten and when June was shot at non-contact ranges the defense tried to suggest blood could get inside from normal backspatter shooting inside.  They had no expert to make these claims though they attempted to make their case during cross-examination but failed.  If they had found an expert to support their position they would have had such expert give testimony.

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #144 on: February 21, 2015, 04:52:PM »
The fact that you have to resort to insults skippy only proves that you cannot prove anything. To make these statements is laughable as you probably have the worst reputation on this forum

The fact is the claim you and lookout keep making is absurd.  I don't care if people think I am rude for pointing out how absurd it is and how foolish you look for making such a ridiculous claim.  I could revel in how stupid it makes you both look and encourage you to keep making the claim.  I tried to help educate you so that you stop making the ridiculous claim and thus stop looking foolish. 

Whether you want to look like a fool or not is up to you. I am not going to walk on pins and needles to pretend it is not absurd and doesn't make you look foolish when it absolutely does.  It takes a great deal of ignorance about this case to be unaware that group A human blood was found in the moderator. Which leads to the suggestion it is not ignorance but rather intentional distortion to claim otherwise.

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Alias

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #145 on: February 21, 2015, 04:55:PM »
The fact that you have to resort to insults skippy only proves that you cannot prove anything. To make these statements is laughable as you probably have the worst reputation on this forum
I skip (no pun intended  :P) many, many of his posts because of the potty mouth, Just off putting, isn´t it.

Offline lookout

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #146 on: February 21, 2015, 05:00:PM »
He's a loser in my books.

Offline David1819

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #147 on: February 21, 2015, 05:09:PM »
He's a loser in my books.

He is a tub of peanut butter!


Offline Jan

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #148 on: February 21, 2015, 05:12:PM »
You are the proponent of the claim so you produce the evidence.  Your evidence always falls short of the claim you always misunderstand or intentionally misrepresent what people claim to suit your agenda and that obviously is the case with this because had he assessed that blood could have simply trickled in and dried on 8 baffles then the defense would have used his testimony to try to rebut that the blood go there as a result of drawback.  Indeed the defense tried to suggest that the blood got in there while Nevill was beaten and when June was shot at non-contact ranges the defense tried to suggest blood could get inside from normal backspatter shooting inside.  They had no expert to make these claims though they attempted to make their case during cross-examination but failed.  If they had found an expert to support their position they would have had such expert give testimony.




 



He said it could of - but more than likely not - HOWEVER - he said it COULD of yes - trickled in - meaning it was a possibility - i.e not impossible -

A bit like the mixture of bloods - possibility - not impossible -

What part of that don't you understand .

resorting to rude insults is a sign of ignorance in my book.

 

Offline susan

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #149 on: February 21, 2015, 05:19:PM »
David hope not I love crunchy peanut butter :'(