Author Topic: Human blood in the silencer:  (Read 26535 times)

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Mr. Gee

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2015, 05:49:PM »
so was it one small flake - or blood splatter?

Was it a mixture or not?

Why did Hayward not make it clear he had not done the tests himself

Apparently as well there was NO test done  to see if it was "back splatter "  interesting that.
It is just another thing that is illogical in this case that goes on and on unquestioned by seemingly intelligent people?

Offline Alias

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2015, 06:20:PM »
The plain facts are these: The silencer evidence was accepted by the court as evidence without question and it should have been questioned as it was allegedly found by interested parties. To my mind a disgraceful state of affairs. Why people on here accept the silencer evidence so blindly really surprises me?

Me too. Welcome back btw.
It was handled so unprofessionally that the mind boggles. Not one, but many factors surrounding the find of the silencer should have rendered it an unsafe piece of evidence, yet it was a corner stone in the whole case against JB.

Offline lookout

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2015, 06:25:PM »

it was a corner stone in the whole case against JB.


Simply because they had diddly-squat to go on. They had to cobble together anything,and cobble they did,albeit that it was made so obvious to those of us who realise that nothing they did held water.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2015, 06:28:PM »
so was it one small flake - or blood splatter?

Was it a mixture or not?

Why did Hayward not make it clear he had not done the tests himself

Apparently as well there was NO test done  to see if it was "back splatter "  interesting that.

1) Fletcher was the expert who explained all about drawback and how the blood got there as a result of drawback so the person who decided to question Hawward's credentials and lack of explanation was worthless.  That explains why during the actual appeal they didn't raise any such claims.  The observations in the defense report were just bouncing ideas the defense shoudl investigate further and what approaches they should consider. 

The defense attacked that he didn't record in WRITING everything observed, he VERBALLY stated what was observed in full.  What was observed in full was visible blood that dried onto at least the first 6 baffles.  Fletcher testified he saw visible blood on at least the first 5 and it might have extended to the first 7.   They said the blood extended several inches in.  All visible blood was removed from the baffles and some was tested.  It was identified as group A blood.

The flake trapped between baffles 1 and 2 was tested and it was not only group A but the AK1 enzyme which June lacked.

2) Blood is consistent with drawback when it is found more than 5mm deep in the weapon but not too deep in the weapon.  This is because medium and high velocity spatter can't travel more than 5mm into a barrel EXCEPT that high velocity spatter can travel more than 5mm deep when the barrel of the weapon is fired 1mm or less from the skin.  The caliber, type of weapon and factors specific to the wound area determine the maximum distance the blood could travel inside.  Blood found too deep to be drawback would presumably have to have gotten there by a different method.

Blood is sprayed inside during drawback.  A spray would deposit the blood on the walls as well as each of the initial baffles with less blood as you got further away from the opening still it stopped entirely.

That is exactly what was observed the largest amount of blood was found on the initial baffles and the volume of blood diminished as it went down.

Defense expert Lincoln found microscopic blood traces of group A blood on the first 8 baffles which again supports the finding of drawback because there would not be blood on the first 8 baffles through any other natural process and using a dropper to plant blood or pouring it in from a test tube or something would result in the blood going deep inside or splashing 1-2 baffles on the first 8.

Thus the defense idea to investigate whether the blood was consistent with drawback ended up with the defense finding out it was consistent with drawback and there was no argument they could make otherwise.  That is why they instead decided to try seeking a DNA test in hope they could find a way to spin the results to say the results suggest the blood inside was June and Nevill's blood as opposed to arguing it was blood that was planted or got there by contamination since there was no way for contamination to account for it and no way for the murder process outside of drawback to account for it.





Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Jan

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2015, 06:31:PM »
I bet if skippy was accused of murder and the evidence was

found by members of the public
Handled without gloves by those persons
Removed from the crime scene by those persons
Removed along with bloodied clothes
Handled again
Put in a wardrobe.
No one can agree who called the police
When the police arrive they put in in a cardboard tube and again don't use gloves.
The police have a few whiskys with the people who find the evidence
The blood evidence is then misinterpreted in the summing up .
Later another expert says he cant 100% confirm it is not animal blood
A document appears that shows animal blood was on the piece of evidence but that was not revealed to the jury


What do you think skippy would be doing? Fighting - or giving in and accepting it as evidence?


Offline Alias

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2015, 06:46:PM »
I bet if skippy was accused of murder and the evidence was

found by members of the public
Handled without gloves by those persons
Removed from the crime scene by those persons
Removed along with bloodied clothes
Handled again
Put in a wardrobe.
No one can agree who called the police
When the police arrive they put in in a cardboard tube and again don't use gloves.
The police have a few whiskys with the people who find the evidence
The blood evidence is then misinterpreted in the summing up .
Later another expert says he cant 100% confirm it is not animal blood
A document appears that shows animal blood was on the piece of evidence but that was not revealed to the jury


What do you think skippy would be doing? Fighting - or giving in and accepting it as evidence?

Nice, but you forgot that one of the finders of the silencer found a flake of blood on it so "fascinating" that he used a razor blade to scrape it off.  ::)

Offline lookout

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2015, 06:48:PM »
 He'd be talking that much that everyone would leg-it, screaming " no more,no more". Only too glad to see the back of him. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2015, 06:50:PM »
Me too. Welcome back btw.
It was handled so unprofessionally that the mind boggles. Not one, but many factors surrounding the find of the silencer should have rendered it an unsafe piece of evidence, yet it was a corner stone in the whole case against JB.

The only way to undermine the moderator evidence would have been to establish a reasonably likelihood the blood got there as a result of natural contamination- which there is no natural way for wet blood to be sprayed inside so that it is deposited on the first 8 baffles- or evidence to establish a reasonable likelihood the blood was planted.

The defense lacked the ability to establish any reasonable prospect either happened and thus went with a Hail Mary play hoping that enough jurors would be willing to believe it was June and Nevill's blood mixed and that Sheila had put the moderator away after she killed everyone with it.

They got the prosecution expert to admit it is a remote possibility he was wrong and that it was Nevill and June's blood mixed.  So they had evidence to make the claim it was their blood mixed though the evidence failed to amount to a reasonable possibility. 

They had no evidence at all to support any other natural way for the blood to have gotten there than drawback.  There isn't even a remote possibility for it to have gotten there naturally by some other operation it is impossible.

While it theoretically is possible for blood o get there by intentional planting there was no evidence to establish even a remote chance of that having occurred. Plenty of evidence existes to refute such a notion while not exists to support it having happened.

The defense chose not to make the allegation it was planted since they had nothing to support the allegation and went with the admission it was drawback but argued it was June and Nevill's blood.

On appeal they can raise the claim that the evidence was planted only if they can produce evidence to establish a reasonable likelihood it was planted.  All their efforts to find evidence of planting failed.  They found no such evidence.  So they were unable to make the claim and making the claim without evidence would be futile anyway. 

So on appeal they stuck with the same argument and claimed the DNA results prove the blood in the moderator was June and Nevill's blood though the DNA results proved no such thing.

They need evidence that Sheila's blood was in the rifle and not in the moderator.  That is what is needed to undermine the moderator evidence which in turn would result in the conviction being overturned.  They need to prove her blood was in the rifle itself not in the moderator.  The blood removed from the moderator was destroyed by testing and whatever wasn't destroyed by the testing itself was not retained.  So there is nothing to scientifically test to prove the blood removed from the moderator wasn't Sheila's.  Similarly there is no scientific test that could prove they removed Sheila's blood from the rifle and concealed the finding. Only someone's admission that they found her blood in the rifle and concealed such finding could help to establish such and that would require the claim being credible with the person having opportunity to do such motive etc.

Similarly only a credible admission of planting evidence in the moderator could help establish such occurred.  No scientific testing can accomplish this only testimonial admissions.  Realists would face these facts.
 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline David1819

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2015, 06:55:PM »
I bet if skippy was accused of murder and the evidence was

found by members of the public
Handled without gloves by those persons
Removed from the crime scene by those persons
Removed along with bloodied clothes
Handled again
Put in a wardrobe.
No one can agree who called the police
When the police arrive they put in in a cardboard tube and again don't use gloves.
The police have a few whiskys with the people who find the evidence
The blood evidence is then misinterpreted in the summing up .
Later another expert says he cant 100% confirm it is not animal blood
A document appears that shows animal blood was on the piece of evidence but that was not revealed to the jury


What do you think skippy would be doing? Fighting - or giving in and accepting it as evidence?

LOL

What do I think skippy would be doing? He would Dismiss his own defence team and represent himself and stand in the dock informing all the court how stupid they are. Then drag out his trial for many month by writing tones of folders worth of testimony.



 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 07:03:PM by david1819 »

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2015, 06:56:PM »
I bet if skippy was accused of murder and the evidence was

found by members of the public
Handled without gloves by those persons
Removed from the crime scene by those persons
Removed along with bloodied clothes
Handled again
Put in a wardrobe.
No one can agree who called the police
When the police arrive they put in in a cardboard tube and again don't use gloves.
The police have a few whiskys with the people who find the evidence
The blood evidence is then misinterpreted in the summing up .
Later another expert says he cant 100% confirm it is not animal blood
A document appears that shows animal blood was on the piece of evidence but that was not revealed to the jury


What do you think skippy would be doing? Fighting - or giving in and accepting it as evidence?

Claims of the public handling evidence only help when the evidence is of a type that can result from contamination.  If it is simple DNA evidence that can be transferred it is one thing.  We are talking about evidence that merely establishes someone was murdered as opposed to killing herself.  That alone doesn't establish who killed her.  The blood in the moderator could not have gotten there from innocent contamination so the whole argument that the public contaminated it doesn't work.  Planting it would require far too much knowledge and effort than the family was capable of including them not having access to remove her blood from the rifle.  The effort required to plant the evidence is substantial and requires proof, just an allegation it happened means nothing.

The evidence that Sheila was murdered is just half the puzzle the other half is who did commit the murders and that case was made by Jeremy himself and Julie.

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Adam

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2015, 07:04:PM »
The only way to undermine the moderator evidence would have been to establish a reasonably likelihood the blood got there as a result of natural contamination- which there is no natural way for wet blood to be sprayed inside so that it is deposited on the first 8 baffles- or evidence to establish a reasonable likelihood the blood was planted.

The defense lacked the ability to establish any reasonable prospect either happened and thus went with a Hail Mary play hoping that enough jurors would be willing to believe it was June and Nevill's blood mixed and that Sheila had put the moderator away after she killed everyone with it.

They got the prosecution expert to admit it is a remote possibility he was wrong and that it was Nevill and June's blood mixed.  So they had evidence to make the claim it was their blood mixed though the evidence failed to amount to a reasonable possibility. 

They had no evidence at all to support any other natural way for the blood to have gotten there than drawback.  There isn't even a remote possibility for it to have gotten there naturally by some other operation it is impossible.

While it theoretically is possible for blood o get there by intentional planting there was no evidence to establish even a remote chance of that having occurred. Plenty of evidence existes to refute such a notion while not exists to support it having happened.

The defense chose not to make the allegation it was planted since they had nothing to support the allegation and went with the admission it was drawback but argued it was June and Nevill's blood.

On appeal they can raise the claim that the evidence was planted only if they can produce evidence to establish a reasonable likelihood it was planted.  All their efforts to find evidence of planting failed.  They found no such evidence.  So they were unable to make the claim and making the claim without evidence would be futile anyway. 

So on appeal they stuck with the same argument and claimed the DNA results prove the blood in the moderator was June and Nevill's blood though the DNA results proved no such thing.

They need evidence that Sheila's blood was in the rifle and not in the moderator.  That is what is needed to undermine the moderator evidence which in turn would result in the conviction being overturned.  They need to prove her blood was in the rifle itself not in the moderator.  The blood removed from the moderator was destroyed by testing and whatever wasn't destroyed by the testing itself was not retained.  So there is nothing to scientifically test to prove the blood removed from the moderator wasn't Sheila's.  Similarly there is no scientific test that could prove they removed Sheila's blood from the rifle and concealed the finding. Only someone's admission that they found her blood in the rifle and concealed such finding could help to establish such and that would require the claim being credible with the person having opportunity to do such motive etc.

Similarly only a credible admission of planting evidence in the moderator could help establish such occurred.  No scientific testing can accomplish this only testimonial admissions.  Realists would face these facts.

That's a good point.

The defence didn't bring up accidental silencer contamination at trial as it was too far fetched. How could Sheila's blood so convincingly and perfectly be sprayed into the silencer by accident ?

Decades later Bamber has claimed his cousins did it. Then again Bamber also said Neville phoned Chelmsford.

 ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 07:05:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2015, 07:13:PM »
Claims of the public handling evidence only help when the evidence is of a type that can result from contamination.  If it is simple DNA evidence that can be transferred it is one thing.  We are talking about evidence that merely establishes someone was murdered as opposed to killing herself.  That alone doesn't establish who killed her.  The blood in the moderator could not have gotten there from innocent contamination so the whole argument that the public contaminated it doesn't work.  Planting it would require far too much knowledge and effort than the family was capable of including them not having access to remove her blood from the rifle.  The effort required to plant the evidence is substantial and requires proof, just an allegation it happened means nothing.

The evidence that Sheila was murdered is just half the puzzle the other half is who did commit the murders and that case was made by Jeremy himself and Julie.

 
Well I do salute you scipio in your recent posts,but didn't Defence suggest that Robert Boutflour might have cut his finger whilst examining the silencer? Wasn't one of the relatives also knowledgeable about guns,so I wouldn't underestimate their capabilities in that regard.

Offline David1819

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2015, 07:14:PM »
That's a good point.

The defence didn't bring up accidental silencer contamination at trial as it was too far fetched. How could Sheila's blood so convincingly and perfectly be sprayed into the silencer by accident ?

Decades later Bamber has claimed his cousins did it. Then again Bamber also said Neville phoned Chelmsford.

 ;D ;D ;D

The prosecution never proved it was Shelia's blood all they found where enzymes that belong to her blood group so they attributed the enzyme to Shelia. The more advanced tests done in 1999 on the silencer allegedly drenched in splattered blood from baffles 1 to 8 found no evidence of any blood based DNA what so ever and that the DNA was not even Shelia's. Scippy then has the audacity to claim this DNA test the most advanced test carried out means nothing, surprise surprise  ::)

Offline Jan

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2015, 07:16:PM »
Well I do salute you scipio in your recent posts,but didn't Defence suggest that Robert Boutflour might have cut his finger whilst examining the silencer? Wasn't one of the relatives also knowledgeable about guns,so I wouldn't underestimate their capabilities in that regard.

and why did the police explain to Anne how important it was in court to explain exactly where  the blood on the clothes came from because she may have been implicated.

And I did just post a document that said the blood could have come from RB.

Offline lookout

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2015, 07:19:PM »
Steve,I bet the " cut finger " thing will fall on deaf ears. I've mentioned it a few times,but it's gone unnoticed. ;D ;D Same blood group as Sheila too  :o