June Bamber, did not attend bible class evening before she was killed...

[Adam]

Adam burglaries take place at night whilst people are asleep, there is no doubt about that. Sometimes if people wake up they get hurt. 

Do you think Bamber creating a fake burglary/multiple massacre was a better option than the murder/suicide frame ?

[gringo]

I just cannot wrap my head around Jeremy staging a two shot homicide as a suicide. Makes zero sense to me!

Hi Alias, it's always interesting to read your reasoned and thoughtful take on events. It is, as you say, implausible that Jeremy would carry on with a plan which required Sheila's death to be suicide after apparently messing up the "faked suicide". It would be more likely that he would that he would tailor his plan at this point to account for the new circumstances. 
      Whilst it is true that everyone on this forum is aware that two shot suicides do occur; most of us, I suspect, only know this from discussions on this forum or from reading about this case. I doubt that many knew this before studying this case. Jeremy is hardly likely to have been reading about two shot suicides and it is reasonable to assume that at the point where he had to make a second shot that he would think that it was now impossible to pass off Sheila's death as self inflicted.
      At this point Jeremy would feel that it was imperative to change the plan otherwise he would certainly be caught, especially if he still made the phone call implicating Sheila. Yet we are to believe that not only did he not change course, but that he made the call as planned and then stood all night with police in an apparent siege knowing that as soon as the siege ended he would be implicated as the only suspect.
      It makes absolutely no sense at all. He could have changed the phone call from Neville to have said anything he chose but apparently this supposed cunning criminal mastermind didn't possess the nous to change the details after the suicide staging had gone wrong.
      He could have decided to make no phone call at all and stage a break in. He had options at this point if he was indeed guilty, but instead he chose the worst option, and one that he would have to assume would lead to his coming under immediate suspicion.
      As you say, Alias, it makes no sense.

[gringo]

As already stated, he didn't stage a double shot suicide - it was the result of a balls up that he had to make the best of.

But instead he made the worst of?

[Patti]

Yes, got it in one but there never was a call, he obviously made it up! I don't think he was worried, you said that, I said he just wanted to cover his arse.

Where did I any of that? And where does 11 minutes come from? We don't know the times of death, so not sure what the significance of 11 mins is. Actually Patti, Jeremy has changed the timing of his call to police, in order to fit in a call to the police from Nevil. Jeremy now says that he called police at 03:36. Odd that he would change such an important and what should a 'static' piece of info

A call that cannot be proven one way or the other, yet you claim to be certain the call never happened. Well, I think a call was made that night and I have my own reasons as to why I think that.

Where is it documented that Jeremy claims to have now called the police at 3:36?

And what about the call made to Julie at 3am where does that fit in? Did he call her from home or WHF? Would he risk the call not to traced having set up all of this up?  I don't buy it, not any of it.

If he called Julie at 3am then he would have had to have gone to WHF to call himself, then return home and call the police. He had no way of knowing that calls could not be traced and that is one of my reasons.

[Patti]

Hi Alias, it's always interesting to read your reasoned and thoughtful take on events. It is, as you say, implausible that Jeremy would carry on with a plan which required Sheila's death to be suicide after apparently messing up the "faked suicide". It would be more likely that he would that he would tailor his plan at this point to account for the new circumstances. 
      Whilst it is true that everyone on this forum is aware that two shot suicides do occur; most of us, I suspect, only know this from discussions on this forum or from reading about this case. I doubt that many knew this before studying this case. Jeremy is hardly likely to have been reading about two shot suicides and it is reasonable to assume that at the point where he had to make a second shot that he would think that it was now impossible to pass off Sheila's death as self inflicted.
      At this point Jeremy would feel that it was imperative to change the plan otherwise he would certainly be caught, especially if he still made the phone call implicating Sheila. Yet we are to believe that not only did he not change course, but that he made the call as planned and then stood all night with police in an apparent siege knowing that as soon as the siege ended he would be implicated as the only suspect.
      It makes absolutely no sense at all. He could have changed the phone call from Neville to have said anything he chose but apparently this supposed cunning criminal mastermind didn't possess the nous to change the details after the suicide staging had gone wrong.
      He could have decided to make no phone call at all and stage a break in. He had options at this point if he was indeed guilty, but instead he chose the worst option, and one that he would have to assume would lead to his coming under immediate suspicion.
      As you say, Alias, it makes no sense.

Brilliant post Gringo...

[Adam]

Hi Alias, it's always interesting to read your reasoned and thoughtful take on events. It is, as you say, implausible that Jeremy would carry on with a plan which required Sheila's death to be suicide after apparently messing up the "faked suicide". It would be more likely that he would that he would tailor his plan at this point to account for the new circumstances. 
      Whilst it is true that everyone on this forum is aware that two shot suicides do occur; most of us, I suspect, only know this from discussions on this forum or from reading about this case. I doubt that many knew this before studying this case. Jeremy is hardly likely to have been reading about two shot suicides and it is reasonable to assume that at the point where he had to make a second shot that he would think that it was now impossible to pass off Sheila's death as self inflicted.
      At this point Jeremy would feel that it was imperative to change the plan otherwise he would certainly be caught, especially if he still made the phone call implicating Sheila. Yet we are to believe that not only did he not change course, but that he made the call as planned and then stood all night with police in an apparent siege knowing that as soon as the siege ended he would be implicated as the only suspect.
      It makes absolutely no sense at all. He could have changed the phone call from Neville to have said anything he chose but apparently this supposed cunning criminal mastermind didn't possess the nous to change the details after the suicide staging had gone wrong.
      He could have decided to make no phone call at all and stage a break in. He had options at this point if he was indeed guilty, but instead he chose the worst option, and one that he would have to assume would lead to his coming under immediate suspicion.
      As you say, Alias, it makes no sense.

Bamber had a plan to insinuate Sheila. It was his best and only plausible option. The fake burglar and random stranger frames are ridiculous ideas. As was the burning down WHF.

Two shot suicides are plausible. Bamber may have read about this in his months of preparation.

Bamber would have also known the rifle was very weak. Used for shooting vermin. So why shouldn't Sheila need two shots ?

Bamber was also in the middle of his plan. He did not have time to suddenly think of a way to radically change direction.

[Caroline]

Hi Alias, it's always interesting to read your reasoned and thoughtful take on events. It is, as you say, implausible that Jeremy would carry on with a plan which required Sheila's death to be suicide after apparently messing up the "faked suicide". It would be more likely that he would that he would tailor his plan at this point to account for the new circumstances. 
      Whilst it is true that everyone on this forum is aware that two shot suicides do occur; most of us, I suspect, only know this from discussions on this forum or from reading about this case. I doubt that many knew this before studying this case. Jeremy is hardly likely to have been reading about two shot suicides and it is reasonable to assume that at the point where he had to make a second shot that he would think that it was now impossible to pass off Sheila's death as self inflicted.
      At this point Jeremy would feel that it was imperative to change the plan otherwise he would certainly be caught, especially if he still made the phone call implicating Sheila. Yet we are to believe that not only did he not change course, but that he made the call as planned and then stood all night with police in an apparent siege knowing that as soon as the siege ended he would be implicated as the only suspect.
      It makes absolutely no sense at all. He could have changed the phone call from Neville to have said anything he chose but apparently this supposed cunning criminal mastermind didn't possess the nous to change the details after the suicide staging had gone wrong.
      He could have decided to make no phone call at all and stage a break in. He had options at this point if he was indeed guilty, but instead he chose the worst option, and one that he would have to assume would lead to his coming under immediate suspicion.
      As you say, Alias, it makes no sense.

It doesn't have to make sense, sometimes life throws a spanner in the works. Perhaps did tailor his plan and decided to include a phone from his dead father to make SEEM as though he were elsewhere when his family were killed.

[Adam]

A call that cannot be proven one way or the other, yet you claim to be certain the call never happened. Well, I think a call was made that night and I have my own reasons as to why I think that.

Where is it documented that Jeremy claims to have now called the police at 3:36?

And what about the call made to Julie at 3am where does that fit in? Did he call her from home or WHF? Would he risk the call not to traced having set up all of this up?  I don't buy it, not any of it.

If he called Julie at 3am then he would have had to have gone to WHF to call himself, then return home and call the police. He had no way of knowing that calls could not be traced and that is one of my reasons.

His OS says he called the police at 3.36am.

This is a big change to his WS which says he got Neville's call at 3.10am and 'immediately' called the police.

Bamber has to radically change the times decades later to fit in Neville's alleged call to the police. 

[Caroline]

But instead he made the worst of?

Like he had time to make any great plan? As I said, you have the benefit of hindsight and he was against the clock!

[Patti]

Do you think Bamber creating a fake burglary/multiple massacre was a better option than the murder/suicide frame ?

It could have been an alternative, to be fair I honestly do not know what really happened that night. Its a mystery, that has me stumped.

At the end of the day Jeremy was proven guilty on a 10/2 verdict of the crime and, is serving a whole life sentence.

Jeremy is the only person who is serving a whole life tariff and for the last 30 years has claimed he did not kill his family. 

If he is guilty then fair enough, but if he is truly innocent then its one of the worst MOJ'S this Country has ever seen.

The moderator was the only item to have been against him at trial, but the jury did not know the half of it.

Th judge clearly said in his summing up that Shelia's blood was inside the moderator.  2002 appeal judges excepted it might not have been Sheila's blood.

[Adam]

It is amazing that people suggest Bamber should have abandoned the murder/suicide frame in the middle of the night. To the terrible ideas of random burglar/stranger theory.

The reason, Sheila had to shoot herself twice with a weak gun.

[Caroline]

It could have been an alternative, to be fair I honestly do not know what really happened that night. Its a mystery, that has me stumped.

At the end of the day Jeremy was proven guilty on a 10/2 verdict of the crime and, is serving a whole life sentence.

Jeremy is the only person who is serving a whole life tariff and for the last 30 years has claimed he did not kill his family. 

If he is guilty then fair enough, but if he is truly innocent then its one of the worst MOJ'S this Country has ever seen.

The moderator was the only item to have been against him at trial, but the jury did not know the half of it.

Th judge clearly said in his summing up that Shelia's blood was inside the moderator.  2002 appeal judges excepted it might not have been Sheila's blood.

Where is it accepted that it might not have been Sheila's blood? Which paragraph in the appeal doc states this?

[Patti]

It is amazing that people suggest Bamber should have abandoned the murder/suicide frame in the middle of the night. To the terrible ideas of random burglar/stranger theory.

The reason, Sheila had to shoot herself twice with a weak gun.

Adam I was speaking hypothetically.  I never said that Bamber should have abandoned the suicide/murder frame at all.

[Patti]

Where is it accepted that it might not have been Sheila's blood? Which paragraph in the appeal doc states this?

I can assure it is there. Bridget showed it me so its on here somewhere.

[Adam]

It could have been an alternative, to be fair I honestly do not know what really happened that night. Its a mystery, that has me stumped.

At the end of the day Jeremy was proven guilty on a 10/2 verdict of the crime and, is serving a whole life sentence.

Jeremy is the only person who is serving a whole life tariff and for the last 30 years has claimed he did not kill his family. 

If he is guilty then fair enough, but if he is truly innocent then its one of the worst MOJ'S this Country has ever seen.

The moderator was the only item to have been against him at trial, but the jury did not know the half of it.

Th judge clearly said in his summing up that Shelia's blood was inside the moderator.  2002 appeal judges excepted it might not have been Sheila's blood.

It would surely be 'the worst' MOJ if he was proved innocent.

There was a lot more forensic and circumstantial evidence than just the silencer.