Author Topic: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?  (Read 17558 times)

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Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #255 on: February 14, 2015, 10:06:PM »
Seriously Schip? Were do you get the 'fine mist' reference from? I have never read that and would be willing to rethink the whole silencer evidence if you can point me in the direction of this particular ref?
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Offline lookout

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #256 on: February 14, 2015, 10:09:PM »
Didn't SJ tell AE " not to mention the silencer ?". Isn't it in one of her statements ?

Offline Jane

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #257 on: February 14, 2015, 10:13:PM »
Didn't SJ tell AE " not to mention the silencer ?". Isn't it in one of her statements ?



I thought it was the carpet slippers but I also know it to be a rouse used by police to get people on side, to make them feel part of a "we're in this together" team. The slippers weren't necessarily of any significance.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #258 on: February 14, 2015, 10:19:PM »
"the jury was made fully aware-----------except the one who was asleep. ;D

Some people still hear in their sleep but in any event in the jury room they fight over all that anyway so even someone asleep would at the end of the day be stuck hearing the evidence unless sleeping during deliberations as well.   

I used to sleep in law school and still heard enough going on so that if called on I would be able to catch up to speed. It mostly is not liked because it is viewed as rude. I used to show up for class with nothing. I didn't bother with notebooks and didn't even bring my textbook, which i stopped buying half way through.  I would just sit back nod off because lectures are boring and wait for the class to end.  If called on I would borrow the textbook of the person next to me, rapidly read he case and then handle anything thrown at me. With how fast I locate, cut and paste snippets from the statements it should be obvious I read very fast so 1 minute case done I know all.

One class I actually read the cases beforehand.  It was a Jewish holiday so most people were not going.  Classes were filmed on religious holidays so you could see them without having to do.  I used all my absences so had to go. I never even bought the book from that class I would just borrow it form those who sat near me.  The people around me were not going so I would have no book so I borrowed on and read it in advance.

Maybe 20 people showed up for class out of 100. My professor moved a chair to the front of the room facing the camera (facing the rest of the class as well) he called on me and made me sit in it so I was too far away from anyone to borrow their books. No book no computer, no pen, just me sitting there for like an hour. He tried his best to nail me.  It was a good thing I read the cases because he was merciless. Finally he gave up and the last 20 minutes he spent on 2 other people who didn't have he sit in the chair in the front so just their voices were on film. 

People there told my friends what happened and they took out the video and all watched it together to laugh at me stuck there.  They had a good time laughing at my facial expressions etc as they drank.  No one actually took it out to hear what the lesson was it was just to watch me sweat. The professor looked quite a bit like Mr Hand From Fast times at Ridgemont High.  He had the beard the same general age and body structure.  So I was nicknamed Spicoli and to this day some will call me that. 


 
 
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Offline lookout

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #259 on: February 14, 2015, 10:30:PM »
All I can say to that is that it's a good job surgeons don't nod off mid-op.

Offline Jan

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #260 on: February 14, 2015, 10:49:PM »
Some people still hear in their sleep but in any event in the jury room they fight over all that anyway so even someone asleep would at the end of the day be stuck hearing the evidence unless sleeping during deliberations as well.   

I used to sleep in law school and still heard enough going on so that if called on I would be able to catch up to speed. It mostly is not liked because it is viewed as rude. I used to show up for class with nothing. I didn't bother with notebooks and didn't even bring my textbook, which i stopped buying half way through.  I would just sit back nod off because lectures are boring and wait for the class to end.  If called on I would borrow the textbook of the person next to me, rapidly read he case and then handle anything thrown at me. With how fast I locate, cut and paste snippets from the statements it should be obvious I read very fast so 1 minute case done I know all.

One class I actually read the cases beforehand.  It was a Jewish holiday so most people were not going.  Classes were filmed on religious holidays so you could see them without having to do.  I used all my absences so had to go. I never even bought the book from that class I would just borrow it form those who sat near me.  The people around me were not going so I would have no book so I borrowed on and read it in advance.

Maybe 20 people showed up for class out of 100. My professor moved a chair to the front of the room facing the camera (facing the rest of the class as well) he called on me and made me sit in it so I was too far away from anyone to borrow their books. No book no computer, no pen, just me sitting there for like an hour. He tried his best to nail me.  It was a good thing I read the cases because he was merciless. Finally he gave up and the last 20 minutes he spent on 2 other people who didn't have he sit in the chair in the front so just their voices were on film. 

People there told my friends what happened and they took out the video and all watched it together to laugh at me stuck there.  They had a good time laughing at my facial expressions etc as they drank.  No one actually took it out to hear what the lesson was it was just to watch me sweat. The professor looked quite a bit like Mr Hand From Fast times at Ridgemont High.  He had the beard the same general age and body structure.  So I was nicknamed Spicoli and to this day some will call me that. 


 
 

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #261 on: February 14, 2015, 11:15:PM »
Seriously Schip? Were do you get the 'fine mist' reference from? I have never read that and would be willing to rethink the whole silencer evidence if you can point me in the direction of this particular ref?

High velocity impact spatter is a fine mist.  High velocity spatter comes from gunshots.  Medium velocity is from blows with objects it is thus bigger.  Low velocity is basically blood that drips from gravity as opposed to being projected.

It doesn't travel straight out of a wound moving in a straight line.  It is a mist and thus various drops travel at various angles. That is why the further away the less concentrated the blood and the closer to wound the more concentrated the blood. 

Drawback is high velocity spatter that goes inside the weapon instead of being projected onto the weapon, killer and other objects.  Because of the various interactions including the drops going at angles it will only travel several inches instead of all the way down a barrel.  In a baffled moderator the various angles will deposit blood on the initial several baffles but will not extend more than several inches in.

This has some of the vocabulary of various issues:

https://www.azflse.org/download.cfm?filename=BLOODSPATTERVOCABULARY&type=pdf&loc=csiarizona

If you research expirated blood and high velocity spatter (both of which are defined there) you will see references to a fine mist (isting blood is defined as well).

Jump to the end of page 33 and read through page 35 and it discusses both the mist and why it doesn't travel that far:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-m_fb580Vx0C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Another factor is the caliber the smaller the caliber of the weapon the less distance the blood travels.  With larger calibers it can be found 5-6 inches deep in a barrel. High energy rounds also impact the distance it will travel. So a variety of factors have to be looked at in assessing distance of travel.





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Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #262 on: February 15, 2015, 12:35:AM »
High velocity impact spatter is a fine mist.  High velocity spatter comes from gunshots.  Medium velocity is from blows with objects it is thus bigger.  Low velocity is basically blood that drips from gravity as opposed to being projected.

It doesn't travel straight out of a wound moving in a straight line.  It is a mist and thus various drops travel at various angles. That is why the further away the less concentrated the blood and the closer to wound the more concentrated the blood. 

Drawback is high velocity spatter that goes inside the weapon instead of being projected onto the weapon, killer and other objects.  Because of the various interactions including the drops going at angles it will only travel several inches instead of all the way down a barrel.  In a baffled moderator the various angles will deposit blood on the initial several baffles but will not extend more than several inches in.

This has some of the vocabulary of various issues:

https://www.azflse.org/download.cfm?filename=BLOODSPATTERVOCABULARY&type=pdf&loc=csiarizona

If you research expirated blood and high velocity spatter (both of which are defined there) you will see references to a fine mist (isting blood is defined as well).

Jump to the end of page 33 and read through page 35 and it discusses both the mist and why it doesn't travel that far:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-m_fb580Vx0C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Another factor is the caliber the smaller the caliber of the weapon the less distance the blood travels.  With larger calibers it can be found 5-6 inches deep in a barrel. High energy rounds also impact the distance it will travel. So a variety of factors have to be looked at in assessing distance of travel.

I keep getting swamped!! Do you have a reference for the 'fine mist' that you keep quoting?
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #263 on: February 15, 2015, 05:27:AM »
I keep getting swamped!! Do you have a reference for the 'fine mist' that you keep quoting?

P 34 of the above book that I posted the link to:

"In the usual case of a shooting where the projectile strikes exposed skin, the energy at impact is hydrostatically transmitted throughout much of the adjoining tissue. This results in the spattering of the blood in a very fine, almost mist-like spray.  These atomized droplets of blood have a very high surface area and, therefore, cannot be projected very far in the horizontal direction."

"In addition to mist-like dropets, several larger droplets will be produced as well. A typical spray pattern, characterized as high velocity impact spatter, may be seen in Figure II-18.  Note that while the vast majority of these blood spots are well under one millimeter in diameter, many larger ones are also produced."

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Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #264 on: February 15, 2015, 01:09:PM »
P 34 of the above book that I posted the link to:

"In the usual case of a shooting where the projectile strikes exposed skin, the energy at impact is hydrostatically transmitted throughout much of the adjoining tissue. This results in the spattering of the blood in a very fine, almost mist-like spray.  These atomized droplets of blood have a very high surface area and, therefore, cannot be projected very far in the horizontal direction."

"In addition to mist-like dropets, several larger droplets will be produced as well. A typical spray pattern, characterized as high velocity impact spatter, may be seen in Figure II-18.  Note that while the vast majority of these blood spots are well under one millimeter in diameter, many larger ones are also produced."

Thanks for that Schip. So there is no piece of evidence that mentions 'fine mist' that's just how back spatter is generally described. I'll say again 'back spatter' (in this case) was simply a way to explain how blood got inside the silencer - no one mentioned a 'fine mist' they just mentioned a 'flake' and blood.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 04:01:PM by Caroline »
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #265 on: February 15, 2015, 04:23:PM »
Thanks for that Schip. So there is no piece of evidence that mentions 'fine mist' that's just how back spatter is generally described. I'll say again 'back spatter' (in this case) was simply a way to explain how blood got inside the silencer - no one mentioned a 'fine mist' they just mentioned a 'flake' and blood.

Visible blood on at least the first 6 baffles and at minimum microscopic blood on the first 8 was found by the defense.  How can it get on multiple baffles? If the moderator is held vertically and blood is poured in or dripped in using a dropper the blood will simply travel down the middle till it hits the end of the baffle or veers to a side and hitting a baffle.  One baffle blocks the baffles behind it.  How can blood get on 8 baffles  in a row?  The only way is via a spray of blood.  As this source explains blood will spray from a wound in a cone pattern because the resistance of the air straight ahead. With a spray you have small atomized particles of blood hitting the various initial baffles. That is exactly how it is distributed in a baffled moderator when drawback occurs.

Who would be in a position to know this beyond the lab?  Who would be in a position to know about drawback period beyond the lab?  Who would be in a position to know Sheila's fatal wound was a contact wound?

The police doing the investigation were unarmed police so didn't know much about guns and this is not common knowledge to gun owners anyway it deals with medical issues.  There is no evidence the police handling the investigation had prior cases that introduced them to drawback, the police thought the only value of the moderator would be if fingerprints were on it.  When they failed to come up with anything that was when they finally gave it back to the lab for detailed testing.  The lab personnel came up with the evidence of drawback and tied it in to Vanezis' September report of the fatal wound being a contact wound.

If the blood had been planted it would have likely been poured deeper into the moderator than drawback goes, giving away it had been planted.  Moreover, planting it would have hit 1-2 baffles not result in blood on 8 consecutive baffles that can only be accomplished by a spray.

Note that the defense was never able to find any experts to contradict the lab and say that the blood distribution in the moderator was not consistent with drawback.  The reason why is because the distribution was consistent with how drawback is deposited in a baffled moderator. If it were not consistent that would be evidence the blood got there by a different method including possibly being planted the so would be extremely potent evidence for the defense.
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Offline David1819

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #266 on: February 15, 2015, 05:44:PM »
Visible blood on at least the first 6 baffles and at minimum microscopic blood on the first 8 was found by the defense.

You have said previously that the blood was only on baffles 1,2 and 6 how you claim it was all baffles 1 to 8!

Only on planet scippy could you can be correct about two conflicting claims! 

But more to the point the UK Forensic Science Service agreed they could not establish if the DNA was blood based. After DNA Low Copy Number (DNA LCN) The court heard in 2000 that the profile could not have come from Sheila Caffell and efforts to identify the source were attempted.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #267 on: February 15, 2015, 05:58:PM »
Visible blood on at least the first 6 baffles and at minimum microscopic blood on the first 8 was found by the defense.  How can it get on multiple baffles? If the moderator is held vertically and blood is poured in or dripped in using a dropper the blood will simply travel down the middle till it hits the end of the baffle or veers to a side and hitting a baffle.  One baffle blocks the baffles behind it.  How can blood get on 8 baffles  in a row?  The only way is via a spray of blood.  As this source explains blood will spray from a wound in a cone pattern because the resistance of the air straight ahead. With a spray you have small atomized particles of blood hitting the various initial baffles. That is exactly how it is distributed in a baffled moderator when drawback occurs.

Who would be in a position to know this beyond the lab?  Who would be in a position to know about drawback period beyond the lab?  Who would be in a position to know Sheila's fatal wound was a contact wound?

The police doing the investigation were unarmed police so didn't know much about guns and this is not common knowledge to gun owners anyway it deals with medical issues.  There is no evidence the police handling the investigation had prior cases that introduced them to drawback, the police thought the only value of the moderator would be if fingerprints were on it.  When they failed to come up with anything that was when they finally gave it back to the lab for detailed testing.  The lab personnel came up with the evidence of drawback and tied it in to Vanezis' September report of the fatal wound being a contact wound.

If the blood had been planted it would have likely been poured deeper into the moderator than drawback goes, giving away it had been planted.  Moreover, planting it would have hit 1-2 baffles not result in blood on 8 consecutive baffles that can only be accomplished by a spray.

Note that the defense was never able to find any experts to contradict the lab and say that the blood distribution in the moderator was not consistent with drawback.  The reason why is because the distribution was consistent with how drawback is deposited in a baffled moderator. If it were not consistent that would be evidence the blood got there by a different method including possibly being planted the so would be extremely potent evidence for the defense.

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #268 on: February 15, 2015, 07:19:PM »
You have said previously that the blood was only on baffles 1,2 and 6 how you claim it was all baffles 1 to 8!

Only on planet scippy could you can be correct about two conflicting claims!

Your record of always being wrong and misrepresenting is still intact.  Post where I stated blood was only on baffles 1, 2 and 6.   You won't be able to find any such quote because you made the claim up.

I have consistently stated that the crime lab personnel didn't record how deep they found the blood in any written record.  The memory of one was that the blood extended to at least the 6th baffle and another to the 7th.  Defense expert Lincoln found microscopic traces of group a blood on the first 8 baffles. Thus the blood was established to have been on the first 8 baffles.  In addition I noted a flake of blood found in between baffles 1 and 2 was found to be a flake of group A blood which had an enzyme in Sheila's blood, her mother had a different enzyme so it could not have been her mother's blood.

My posts stress this information again and again including quotes from the 2002 COA decision I posted to you with this information.  You clearly lack the ability to comprehend it and even after being corrected still keep saying the flake with Sheila's enzyme was on the 5th baffle which is factually wrong though it makes no real difference in the overall picture.
 
But more to the point the UK Forensic Science Service agreed they could not establish if the DNA was blood based. After DNA Low Copy Number (DNA LCN) The court heard in 2000 that the profile could not have come from Sheila Caffell and efforts to identify the source were attempted.

What does this have to do with the blood removed from the moderator in 1985 and 1986?  Are you suggesting that the fact no blood remained in 200 means the blood removed in 1985 and 1986 wasn't actually blood?  If so then you are more delusional than I thought.

The DNA tests of the moderator has no bearing at all on the evidence used at trial which is why the COA rejected the defense's claims. 

The only DNA test that would matter would have been a DNA test of the blood removed by the lab and by defense expert Lincoln.  DNA tests of such blood were not done though just serology tests.  The blood was type A and a flake tested had an enzyme June lacked so it had to be Sheila's.

Sheila had a wound that was virtually certain to result in drawback- it happens to be her fatal wound.  That means her blood would be found in the rifle if the rifle was used without a moderator and in the moderator if the moderator was used.  It was not in the rifle but was in the moderator which proves the fatal shot was fired with the moderator attached.  That in turn proves she was murdered because there is no way she could have shot herself with the moderator attached except by pulling the trigger with her toes (which would have resulted in her gown getting evidence on it from the vents and ejection port) and she would not have been able to remove it and put it away after her death.

The DNA tests done in 2000 don't impact this at all. What you cited is in part why the DNA tests are worthless there was no evidence there was any blood left inside to test for DNA. FURTHERMORE, even if there had been blood found, finding blood of someone else doesn't prove the blood removed wasn't Sheila's.  Sheila had a wound that would result in drawback.  If someone else had a wound resulting in drawback as well that doesn't negate the fact her blood would have to have been in the moderator or the rifle and wasn't in the rifle but there was evidence it was in the moderator. 

The COA decision stressed this:

"The evidence of Mr Hayward was not to the effect that all the blood in the moderator had been tested but rather that some of that blood had been tested. Thus this was not a case where the scientist was saying that the only blood in the moderator came from Sheila Caffell. His evidence was that the blood tested came from Sheila Caffell although he acknowledged the remote possibility that even that blood was a mixture of blood from Nevill Bamber and June Bamber.

No questions were asked at trial of Mr Hayward to establish what part of the blood he had tested. The position was, however, known to the defence through their own expert Dr Lincoln. Dr Lincoln had seen the evidential material upon which the group testing results were based and agreed with the conclusions. He recorded that evidence in the course of his report of 19 September 1986. He said that Mr Hayward had "found a flake of blood trapped under the first or second baffle plate" and that it was this flake that was tested and produced the groupings A, EAP BA, AK1, Hp2.1 upon which reliance was placed by the prosecution. Dr Lincoln further recorded:

"Mr Hayward states that he could detect visible staining on the "upper baffle plates" and that he swabbed these plates so that the blood was taken onto cotton material which could subsequently be used in grouping tests. On this material Mr Hayward successfully determined the ABO and EAP groups and showed the blood to be groups A, EAP BA."

This finding from the swabbing of the upper baffle plates was thus consistent with blood from either June Bamber or Sheila Caffell or even a combination of blood from the two of them but not in any way from blood from Nevill Bamber or Nicholas Caffell.

Thus, even if one accepted that the DNA found on the baffle plates at a much later date came from blood from June Bamber deposited on the baffle plates during the shootings, it was not in any way inconsistent with the conclusions drawn from the testing of the flake which material that had been destroyed by the very nature of the examination process and hence could not be subjected to DNA testing. Thus the evidence did not as the Commission suggested "severely undermine" the prosecution case."

In laymen's terms:

1) The prosecution expert didn't claim that all the blood was Sheila's and only Sheila's.  The prosecution expert noted that blood on the baffles was group A which was shared by June and Sheila and thus could belong to either or both.  The flake of blood is what was determined to be Sheila's and only Sheila's because it had an enzyme Sheila possessed but that June didn't because June had a different enzyme.

2) Therefore even if it were proven that June's blood had been found all this would prove is that June's blood was still in the moderator and had failed to be removed by the lab and Lincoln during their testing.  It would not be able to establish that the blood flake removed in 1985 which was determined to be Sheila's wasn't Sheilas.  Only DNA testing of that flake could potentially establish the flake wasn't Sheila's.

This was the MAIN reason for the COA saying the evidence failed to undermine the prosecution case the COA went on to discuss other problems such as contamination which were simply additional reasons to dismiss the claims but even without contamination the evidence was worthless for the above reason.

 
 
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Offline ngb1066

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #269 on: February 16, 2015, 12:27:PM »
The prosecutor wrote they could not prosecute her for the bank charge because the bank would not file a criminal complaint, that for the drug charges the would normally just give a caution under such circumstances and that there was nothing they could charge in relation to the caravan break in because she was just a bystander with the exception of the unsuccessful attempt to get the key for him.

All the above is rubbish Scipio, as is almost all you have written on this thread about the offences committed by Julie Mugford, the likely sentences had she been prosecuted and the circumstances in which she was given immunity from prosecution in return for agreeing to testify against Jeremy Bamber in his trial for murder.  I have previously posted in detail about this.