Sheila's medical condition = A brutal multiple murderer ?

[Jan]

Well if 3 qualified doctors couldn't restrain her,there wasn't much hope of anyone else trying to.

One poster suggested recently that   initially Sheila may have been threatening to kill herself - which would have made more sense because you would not just go in to overpower her when there would be a possibility of her shooting herself whilst you were doing that.

I guess though that would mean the sound moderator was not on the gun because how would she be in a position to do that with the rifle with the moderator on ?

[lookout]

One poster suggested recently that   initially Sheila may have been threatening to kill herself - which would have made more sense because you would not just go in to overpower her when there would be a possibility of her shooting herself whilst you were doing that.

I guess though that would mean the sound moderator was not on the gun because how would she be in a position to do that with the rifle with the moderator on ?

She'd have been hard-pushed to shoot herself even without the moderator on the spur of the moment,unless she'd been laid down. Unlike a revolver which is more manageable,so I'd very much doubt she'd have been in a position to have physically showed signs of suicide holding a rifle.
Only at the end would she have collapsed with exhaustion would she have been able to carry out suicide,not whilst standing ( which we all know )

[lebaleb]

IMO Sheila may have put the moderator on before shooting the boys, she may have been afraid they would wake up. She may have then shot Neville and June more times before removing it. Any blood inside the silencer would have been mixed by the act of unscrewing it.

[Jan]

IMO Sheila may have put the moderator on before shooting the boys, she may have been afraid they would wake up. She may have then shot Neville and June more times before removing it. Any blood inside the silencer would have been mixed by the act of unscrewing it.

I think one of the many problems is that we may have been assuming she was in the middle of an "episode" where she may not have recognised her family as her family ( remember the fact that she thought her boyfriend was the devil and the CIA were stalking her) in which case it would be wrong to attribute any logical Thoughts or actions to what happened.

But of course there is the possibility that having had suicidal thoughts before, that the fact that Colin was not coming back to her , fostering had been discussed ( backed up by other evidence in both cases )and she felt betrayal by her father  if he was agreeing with June, that she did just decide enough was enough and she did know what she was doing. Having seen the report of the recent case where the mother killed her children , she though the ultimate act of love was to take her children with her , abandonment was the last option as she felt that would mean she was  a bad mother.

It is very hard to imagine what could possibly have been going on in her mind and whether she would have used the moderator and then taken it off again . It seems unlikely - but to be fair no more unlikely than the whole scenario of JB committing the crime and then standing next to the police a couple of hours later.

[lookout]

I really don't think that Sheila was compos mentis enough to have returned the moderator to the cupboard,though I'd love to know where it was REALLY found !?

As Jan said,she'd have been totally unaware of her own actions during a psychotic attack,having witnessed such an episode myself where the person had no conception of her actions after they took place. No memory whatsoever.

[lebaleb]

In my experience of people having psychotic episodes, you are right that they have no memory of it afterwards but they can recognise people they know. It's just that they get warped ideas about peoples intentions. If you try to get them to take medication they may think you are trying to poison them. Or if you won't let them go out you are keeping them prisoner. Things can get confrontational pretty quickly if you can't reason with them. My cousin was once convinced he was about to be awarded the Nobel prize and said he would mention my name because I had given him the original idea. That was all before he strangled his wife because she was driving him to the mental hospital.

[lookout]

 I can relate to what you said regarding your cousin,as this person who I know put me in a pretty dangerous position this summer because of her mental state. I was only helping but could easily have ended up a victim of her unbalanced mind. She had no recollection whatsoever when I questioned her about the incident and appeared quite matter-of-fact and normal.
Because of this,I then had far more understanding of Sheilas' illness in that because I was able to ask this person about her " episode ",so it's quite true that they don't remember a thing,the same as Sheila wouldn't had she lived. Scary too,but living proof as well.

[lookout]

 A Medical cover-up,eh ?

[Jan]

In my experience of people having psychotic episodes, you are right that they have no memory of it afterwards but they can recognise people they know. It's just that they get warped ideas about peoples intentions. If you try to get them to take medication they may think you are trying to poison them. Or if you won't let them go out you are keeping them prisoner. Things can get confrontational pretty quickly if you can't reason with them. My cousin was once convinced he was about to be awarded the Nobel prize and said he would mention my name because I had given him the original idea. That was all before he strangled his wife because she was driving him to the mental hospital.

I did watch a programme quite recently where it took a large number of policemen to calm one man in the middle of an episode. But he was not seeing them as policemen. they were the enemy and that was all he saw. When he came out of the episode he was so apologetic and a kind gentle person. It made me understand a lot more what can happen.

[Jan]

I really don't think that Sheila was compos mentis enough to have returned the moderator to the cupboard,though I'd love to know where it was REALLY found !?

As Jan said,she'd have been totally unaware of her own actions during a psychotic attack,having witnessed such an episode myself where the person had no conception of her actions after they took place. No memory whatsoever.

this is a point I have asked before . What if the family did find the moderator - but not in the cupboard. What if was somewhere that the police should have found it but didn't - for example under the bed? And the police just asked the family to cover that bit up because it made them look stupid. That would change the whole situation and would explain a lot?

[Adam]

this is a point I have asked before . What if the family did find the moderator - but not in the cupboard. What if was somewhere that the police should have found it but didn't - for example under the bed? And the police just asked the family to cover that bit up because it made them look stupid. That would change the whole situation and would explain a lot?

The relatives found the moderator in a small box. Underneath other boxes, guns & dartboards. That has never been disputed.

[Adam]

The problem is all the evidence points to Sheila not being capable of committing the massacre. Freddie saying she could hardly hold a glass.

Pre trial, the defence consulted several leading experts. This was to see if they believed Sheila's medical condition made her capable going into such a mad rage and committing the massacre. They all said it did not.

Since the trial supporters have claimed that these experts were not given the full facts on her medical condition.  Not sure why the medical departments were not going to hand over all requested information. There was about to be a multiple murder trial. Also not sure how supporters know what the experts saw or did not see.

The defence also had the best witness - Jeremy, who seemed to know all about Sheila's illness when speaking to police pre arrest. He went a bit silent after his arrest but put a lot of information on the WS . He even knew what no one else knew, that 'Sheila was going to be sent to the nut house' & had committed child abuse on the twins. 

Neville and June would know more than anyone about Sheila's condition. She was costing them enough in medical bills. So very surprising that they invited her over for an extended stay if she was a danger. And that Colin allowed this. And even more surprising that Neville & June would provoke her with suggestions of fostering.

The Foakes's saw Sheila on the massacre day & she seemed in good spirits. She even took the twins to see Jeremy on his tractor.

Apparently Sheila was non responsive when the alleged fostering conversation took place. The judge saying this alleged conversation cannot be used as a reason for the 3am outburst.

Despite all this Sheila suddenly massacred five members of her family, repeat 'massacred five members of her family'. Shooting them in the head & torso over 20 times. And brutally beating the person she was closest to.

[lookout]

this is a point I have asked before . What if the family did find the moderator - but not in the cupboard. What if was somewhere that the police should have found it but didn't - for example under the bed? And the police just asked the family to cover that bit up because it made them look stupid. That would change the whole situation and would explain a lot?

Yes,that would figure. Something's been smoothed over,of that there's no doubt,because I've never believed that the silencer was in that cupboard, and shoved to the back.Who'd have wanted it to have been hidden anyway ? Not even DB,who'd have been more than pleased to have seen it balancing under the nose's of the cops on a shelf in front of them.That's where it would have been if those concerned wanted it to have been found.
What would have been the purpose of hiding something like that anyway,knowing that it would eventually have been found ? Not even Jeremy was as dumb as that.

When you think about it,there are a lot of questions about that silencer and that's why I've thought it too obvious as having been a red-herring all along. There were 5 of the damn things,but only one was needed in which to point a finger at Jeremy !! So that phoney " evidence ",along with JM's lies,got him where he's been for 30 years. I very much doubt if it'll be 31.

[Jan]

I would like to say for the record that even Colin - who remember was convinced that Sheila was guilty in the beginning contradicts himself about her "abilities"

He does say at times her co-ordination was bad - however she was perfectly capable of preparing and helping for the twins party just before the murders with no problems what so ever.

He did also say that when she had her episode in March , an emergency doctor did voice his fears that she was a threat to herself and others.

He also had been looking after the twins for 5 months at the time of the murders and was very angry when he heard that June had been talking about fostering the children with a local Christian family because Sheila could not look after them and it would mean the family could see more of the twins .But he readily accepted that this conversation could have taken place.

He also mentions that both he and Sheila used to go beating with shoots.

[lookout]

 I rather think that Colin could have opened up a bit more in his book.He gave me the impression he was holding back on quite a lot really,well his book did.It was in fits and starts with no middle,if you get my meaning.