Informatives - carried out by a gang of interferring Senior Officers...

[Gemma]

But it doesn't seem to matter, that Julie Mugford changed the estimated timing of Jeremys call to her from 3.30am, to 3.15am, or sooner, and the the original timing of Jeremys call to police, timed at 3.36am, was changed to 3.26am, retrospectively? So, its a case of, one rule for 'them', but 'different rules' for Jeremy? If anybody has changed the timings to suit the circumstances, it is the police, and its witnesses. The timed police radio messages are another example, of information having been changed, since messages timed at 7.37, 7.38, 7.42, and elsewhere, 7.45am, makes mention of, 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female', or, 'one dead male, one dead female', or, 'can you contact the police surgeon regarding two bodys', or, 'can you attend the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving a murder, and a suicide'...

So, between messages or requests that are recorded between, 7.37 and 7.45am, the messages clearly are dealing with two bodies having been found, once the raid team got into the farmhouse - that is an '8 minute' period of intense activity which quite clearly deals with the discovery or confrontation of two dead bodies, one of the bodys was clearly a male, and the other was clearly a female, the first being referred to as a murder, the second being referred to as a suicide, both references to two dead people, not one, mistaken for the other..,

Mike, can you explain how PC Collins saw the body of a female before the police went in the house. Or do you now agree with the explanation given by the police that it was Nevill's body.

[mike tesko]

Mike, can you explain how PC Collins saw the body of a female before the police went in the house. Or do you now agree with the explanation given by the police that it was Nevill's body.

There is a strong possibility that this alleged sighting, did not take place at all...

This is because PC Collins would not have been able to mistakenly identify Ralph Bambers body, for that of his daughters body, situated in the corner of the kitchen, as viewed from the vantage point of standing outside the kitchen window looking in. This was because the angle between window and the corner of the kitchen where Ralphs body was sat upon a wooden chair was too acute...

[mike tesko]

No radio message appears in  any of the police logs, which confirm this account. I think it was introduced later to try and help police cover thier tracks, because although two bodies were downstairs when the raid team entered the farmhouse at around 7.30am, by 8.44am when the police surgeon (Dr Craig) arrived, there was only Ralphs body downstairs in the kitchen. I think Collins account was introduced to try and account for this discrepancy of bodies in the kitchen, at around 7.30, (two) and 8.44am (one). In the logs, identification of 'the body of one dead male', appears before mention of, 'the body of one dead female'. Mention of 'one dead male', appears before mention of, 'one dead female'. Also, mention of, 'a murder', is mentioned in sequential order, before mention of, 'a suicide'...

For PC Collins account to be true, and accurate, mention of the terms, 'the body of one dead female', and, 'one dead female', also, 'a suicide', would be mentioned before references to, 'the body of one dead male', or 'one dead male', and,  'a murder'. Police  messed up trying to cover up for the fact that at 7.42am, a 'request was made for the police surgeon to be sent out to the scene (whf) regarding two bodies'...

Add to this, that at 8.10am, 'a further three bodies were found upstairs, five dead in total', tells its own story...

[mike tesko]

Anyway, lets look at PC Collins account from the perspective of the body he alleges he saw, being 'behind the kitchen door', from his vantage point of standing outside the kitchen window, looking into the kitchen :-

From his view point at the window he could see in the general durection of three internal kitchen doors, albeit he only had a clear view of only one of these doors, the door in question being the internal door which devided the main kitchen from the pantry. Now if there had been a body behind this door, from Collins vantage point, it would have been inside the pantry. If a body had been in front of this door, the body would be in the kitchen.
 ,

[mike tesko]

Now, dealing with the door through which the raid team and others, who flooded into the main kitchen of the farmhouse. On the kitchen side of this Internal door was Ralph Bambers body.  If PC Collins could see this door from his vantage point, any body inside the main kitchen, could only be  accurately described as being in front of this door. The internal door we are now talking about, separates the maun kitchen, from the back kitchen and hallway. Let no-one be in any doubt that PC Colluns could not possibly have had a clear view of the kitchen side of this door (in front of the door) because of the acute angle required. So, there we have it, if Collins had seen a body behind a kitchen door, it could not have been Ralph Bambers body, because from PC Collins vantage  point, Ralphs body was in front of that door, not behind it. Hence,  he could not have mistakenly identified Ralphs body for Sheila's...

[Gemma]

There is a strong possibility that this alleged sighting, did not take place at all...

This is because PC Collins would not have been able to mistakenly identify Ralph Bambers body, for that of his daughters body, situated in the corner of the kitchen, as viewed from the vantage point of standing outside the kitchen window looking in. This was because the angle between window and the corner of the kitchen where Ralphs body was sat upon a wooden chair was too acute...

Fair enough Mike, but I have problem understanding how Sheila's body could have ended upstairs if the police had shot her downstairs. If she had been shot by them they would have been in close attendance trying to give aid. If she had shot herself before they went in, it's at least believable that they just took it for granted she was dead and neglected to take her pulse and then went upstairs leaving her.

Surely there would have been policemen still with her if the police had only just shot her, so slipping upstairs when they weren't looking seems  almost impossible. They would have to have just assumed she was dead to just go and leave her.

[Caroline]

Fair enough Mike, but I have problem understanding how Sheila's body could have ended upstairs if the police had shot her downstairs. If she had been shot by them they would have been in close attendance trying to give aid. If she had shot herself before they went in, it's at least believable that they just took it for granted she was dead and neglected to take her pulse and then went upstairs leaving her.

Surely there would have been policemen still with her if the police had only just shot her, so slipping upstairs when they weren't looking seems  almost impossible. They would have to have just assumed she was dead to just go and leave her.

More to the point, IF they had just shot her, they would be hardly likely to use a loaded weapon in a training exercise. They would have made sure it was safe.

[scipio_usmc]

Yes, Sheila was originally shot during an altercation between PS Woodcock and herself downstairs in the kitchen. The shot didn't kill her, it stunned her, knocked her out. Police thought she was dead, and her supposed actual death was reported as part of a series of radio messages passed from within the scene and to the control room, described variously as 'the body of one dead male, AND, the body of one dead female', or 'One dead male, one dead female', or 'can you attend the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving a murder, and a suicide', or 'can you contact the police surgeon, regarding two bodies'...

Jeremy believes that Sheila shot herself once, as police entered the kitchen, and that in the turmoil that followed, she did not succeed to kill herself, but managed to flee upstairs, before shooting herself (again) a second time in the bedroom. Like everyone else, Jeremy is entitled to his opinion, or scenario. I disagree with Jeremy regarding his version in many ways, but I do agree with his suggestion that Sheila was shot once downstairs in the kitchen, and once upstairs in the bedroom...

The shot inflicted upstairs in the bedroom, killed her...

1) the miedocal evidence shows the two shots were fired seconds apart so there was not enough time between shots for her to be shot in different rooms

2) she would have been too badly injured ot have walked up the stairs evne had the second shot not been fired until minutes later

3) if she stood upright and even tried to walk she would have bled down her gown but that didn't happen because she never stood upright after being shot.  How did she get upstairs, did she sit on a flying carpet?

The wild claims of her being shot downstairs are just that, wild ridiculous claims and your claim you saw photos of her body in the kitchen and in the bed were out and out lies you made up.  We know they are lies not only because the evidence conclusively proves she was shot on the floor where her body was found (including a pool of blood on the floor near where her body was) but also because if police had decided to move her body right away then there is no way they would have taken photos.  Who would decide, "we are going to move the body before anyone else comes in so that no one knows she was found on the kitchen floor/ in bed and will lie about where we find her but will take photos first so peopel can find out we lied and moved her" 

Would anyone do that?

You should have at least made up lies that were credible and at this point at just wasting your times with these wild things you keep repeating.

[Gemma]

More to the point, IF they had just shot her, they would be hardly likely to use a loaded weapon in a training exercise. They would have made sure it was safe.

Hi Caroline.

I think there seems to be some misunderstanding. Mike can correct me if I've got this wrong, but I think that he believes that the police shot Sheila as they broke into the house and that it occurred well before the training exercise. He also thinks that the police accidentally shot Sheila a second time as they staged the body to look like suicide on the bedroom floor upstairs . The arguments about that as a possibility are a separate matter.

My simple point is that it's at least believable that Sheila regained consciousness and found her way upstairs, if the police had just assumed she was dead when they first saw her on the floor of the kitchen, but much harder to explain if they had just shot her as they broke in.

[scipio_usmc]

Hi Caroline.

I think there seems to be some misunderstanding. Mike can correct me if I've got this wrong, but I think that he believes that the police shot Sheila as they broke into the house and that it occurred well before the training exercise. He also thinks that the police accidentally shot Sheila a second time as they staged the body to look like suicide on the bedroom floor upstairs . The arguments about that as a possibility are a separate matter.

My simple point is that it's at least believable that Sheila regained consciousness and found her way upstairs, if the police had just assumed she was dead when they first saw her on the floor of the kitchen, but much harder to explain if they had just shot her as they broke in.

Mike has alleged a lot of different things ranging from Sheila shooting herself as police entered and then them shooting her again, to them shooting her then dragging her body to the bed upstairs and shooting her again hours later. He has also claimed he had seen photos of her body in the kitchen and in the bed...

None of his stories ever:

1) comport with the physical/medical evidence.  There was a pool of blood on the floor of the bedroom proving that is where she was shot, medical evidence establishes the shots were fired mere seconds apart and the blood stains prove she was sitting while shot and after being shot, she had not ever stood upright.

2) provide any rational reason why police would decide to move her body

[Caroline]

Hi Caroline.

I think there seems to be some misunderstanding. Mike can correct me if I've got this wrong, but I think that he believes that the police shot Sheila as they broke into the house and that it occurred well before the training exercise. He also thinks that the police accidentally shot Sheila a second time as they staged the body to look like suicide on the bedroom floor upstairs . The arguments about that as a possibility are a separate matter.

My simple point is that it's at least believable that Sheila regained consciousness and found her way upstairs, if the police had just assumed she was dead when they first saw her on the floor of the kitchen, but much harder to explain if they had just shot her as they broke in.

Hi Gemma, I did ask for clarification as to what Mike was suggesting- please see the comments below .

Are you saying you believe that Sheila was shot 'once' by Woodcock on entry to WHF (but wasn't dead) and then again by someone else during the training exercise?

Yes, Sheila was originally shot during an altercation between PS Woodcock and herself downstairs in the kitchen. The shot didn't kill her, it stunned her, knocked her out. Police thought she was dead, and her supposed actual death was reported as part of a series of radio messages passed from within the scene and to the control room, described variously as 'the body of one dead male, AND, the body of one dead female', or 'One dead male, one dead female', or 'can you attend the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving a murder, and a suicide', or 'can you contact the police surgeon, regarding two bodies'...

Jeremy believes that Sheila shot herself once, as police entered the kitchen, and that in the turmoil that followed, she did not succeed to kill herself, but managed to flee upstairs, before shooting herself (again) a second time in the bedroom. Like everyone else, Jeremy is entitled to his opinion, or scenario. I disagree with Jeremy regarding his version in many ways, but I do agree with his suggestion that Sheila was shot once downstairs in the kitchen, and once upstairs in the bedroom...

The shot inflicted upstairs in the bedroom, killed her...

[mike tesko]

There were only originally six firearms officers who entered the farmhouse when PS Woodcock shot Sheila during a confrontation as he was squeezing through a small gap in the internal kitchen door (which led from the rear hallwat, back kitchen / into the main kitchen, or vice versa).  Once Sheila was shot, she reacted in such a manner which caused the officer to believe she had died. Other officers who entered the kitchen behind Woodcock, reported over the radio that 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, found on entry' to the kitchen (7.37am), followed by a second radio message at 7.38am, with 'one dead male, one dead female'...

After Sheila had been shot, a further two firearms officers were drafted into the farmhouse because six were inadequate to search such a huge building...

I have never claimed that the police carried her body upstairs, because they didn't...

It is understood that she made her way upstairs from the kitchen by way of the small spiral staircase situared in the corner of the kitchen, which led directly upstairs to the top landing, close to the bedroom doors...

There was medical / expert evidence given during the trial that Sheila could have got up and walked around at some stage after the first shot, no evidence was called to say that both shots had been fired one immediately after the other. That is a myth, it was an explanation introduced by the police as part of the cover up to hide for the fact that Sheila had been shot once downstairs by Woodcock in the line of duty, and secondly during the performance of familiars by senior officers upstairs in the bedroom...

[Jane]

There were only originally six firearms officers who entered the farmhouse when PS Woodcock shot Sheila during a confrontation as he was squeezing through a small gap in the internal kitchen door (which led from the rear hallwat, back kitchen / into the main kitchen, or vice versa).  Once Sheila was shot, she reacted in such a manner which caused the officer to believe she had died. Other officers who entered the kitchen behind Woodcock, reported over the radio that 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, found on entry' to the kitchen (7.37am), followed by a second radio message at 7.38am, with 'one dead male, one dead female'...

After Sheila had been shot, a further two firearms officers were drafted into the farmhouse because six were inadequate to search such a huge building...

I have never claimed that the police carried her body upstairs, because they didn't...

It is understood that she made her way upstairs from the kitchen by way of the small spiral staircase situared in the corner of the kitchen, which led directly upstairs to the top landing, close to the bedroom doors...

There was medical / expert evidence given during the trial that Sheila could have got up and walked around at some stage after the first shot, no evidence was called to say that both shots had been fired one immediately after the other. That is a myth, it was an explanation introduced by the police as part of the cover up to hide for the fact that Sheila had been shot once downstairs by Woodcock in the line of duty, and secondly during the performance of familiars by senior officers upstairs in the bedroom...

So if Sheila managed to get herself upstairs after the first shot it's fairly certain that having been shot in the neck she'd have left a tell tale blood trail down the front of her nightdress and/or on the stairs.

[Mr. Gee]

So if Sheila managed to get herself upstairs after the first shot it's fairly certain that having been shot in the neck she'd have left a tell tale blood trail down the front of her nightdress and/or on the stairs.

Hi April, although I don't agree with Mike on this and rather think she was shot upstairs, nevertheless concerning any blood trail the police are silent on this and we have no photos that show any blood trails? So it is possible there was blood in certain places but ignored? It is obvious we don't have the whole story as to what went on that night, other than scipios wild, but imaginative and entertaining  guesses?

[Jane]

Hi April, although I don't agree with Mike on this and rather think she was shot upstairs, nevertheless concerning any blood trail the police are silent on this and we have no photos that show any blood trails? So it is possible there was blood in certain places but ignored? It is obvious we don't have the whole story as to what went on that night, other than scipios wild, but imaginative and entertaining  guesses?

Grahame, HAD she been capable of getting herself up a spiral staircase, I don't imagine it would have been done in a hurry. IMO, she couldn't possible have got from bottom to top without blood evidence on her person/nightdress and would have been in no fit state to lift her arms to divest herself of a bloodied nightdress to put on a clean one.