Author Topic: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?  (Read 86553 times)

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John

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #270 on: April 11, 2011, 03:21:PM »
Lets have a look at Julie Mugfords evidence again...

In her second statement to police, Julie Mugford said Jeremy had talked disparagingly about his "old" father, his "mad" mother, his sister who he said had nothing to live for, and the twins who he said were disturbed. Bamber denied this, saying she was making the allegations only because he jilted her.
 
Mugford's mother also said Bamber had told her he "hated" his adoptive mother and described her as mad. A friend of Mugford's testified that Bamber had said around February 1985 that his parents kept him short of money, his mother was a religious freak, and "I fucking hate my parents." A farm worker testified that he seemed not to get on with Sheila and had once said: "I'm not going to share my money with my sister".

In discussions Mugford said she had dismissed his rants as fantasies, he said he wanted to sedate his parents and set fire to the farmhouse. He reportedly said Sheila would make a good scapegoat. Mugford alleged he had discussed entering the house through the kitchen window because the catch was broken, and leaving it via a different window that latched when it was shut from the outside. She said she spent the weekend before the murders with him in his cottage in Goldhanger, where he dyed his hair black, and that she saw his mother's bicycle there. This was significant because the prosecution later alleged he had used the bicycle to cycle between his cottage and the farmhouse on the night of the murders.

She told police Bamber had telephoned her on at 9.50pm on 6 August to say he had been thinking about the crime all day, was pissed off, and that it was "tonight or never." A few hours later, between 3.00–3.30am, she said he phoned her again to say: "Everything is going well. Something is wrong at the farm. I haven't had any sleep all night … bye honey and I love you lots". Her flatmates' evidence suggested that call came through closer to 3.00am.

He called her later during the morning of 7 August 1985 to tell her that Sheila had gone mad and that a police car was coming to pick her up and bring her to the farmhouse. When she arrived there, she said he pulled her to one side and said: "I should have been an actor!".

Later that evening she asked whether he had done it. He said no, but that a friend of his had, whom he named; the man was a plumber the family had used in the past. He said he had told this friend how he could enter and leave the farmhouse undetected, and that one of his instructions had been for the friend to telephone him from the farm on one of the phones in the house that had a memory redial facility, so that if the police checked it, it would give him an alibi. Everything had gone as planned, he said, except that Nevill had put up a fight, and the friend had become angry and shot him seven times.
 
He had told Sheila to lie down and shoot herself last, Bamber said. He then placed the Bible on her chest so she appeared to have killed herself in a religious frenzy. The children were shot in their sleep, he said. Mugford said Bamber claimed to have paid the friend £2,000.

Offline VORTEX

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #271 on: April 11, 2011, 06:34:PM »
Jeremy and Robert Boutflour disagreed on how to deal with security at the site and Jeremy owned part of it, so in theory he was stealing from himself as well as the family. I can kind of understand why he stole the money as he wasn't being given / paid the same share as his cousin Ann Eaton (so perhaps he saw it as his anyway). There is quite a difference in stealing a few quid and murder. Don't forget Mugford was happy to be involved so does that cloud your judgement of her also?

I find this quite interesting looking back.  Wasn't the murders all about stealing money too but on a grander scale??

John ...... Get over this part of the case as it paints a very bad picture of the star prosecution witness  Julie Mugford as well as Jeremy Bamber. People use it to undermine Jeremy's integrity but choose to  ignore what it says about  Julie's character (you can't have it both ways as they did this together). I believe Jeremy just stole what he thought was rightfully his - Ann was getting paid a much bigger share than him which is very unfair and probably bred resentment. Comparing or linking this petty theft to the murders at WHF is like comparing someone getting 3 points and a speeding ticket to a professional car thief! If you're going to use this to crucify Jeremy then you'll have to crucify Julie Mugford at the same time.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 06:37:PM by VORTEX »

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #272 on: April 11, 2011, 06:39:PM »
I might be wrong in this Kaldin, but what the prosecution were attempting to show was that Jeremy could gain entry to the farmhouse at any time and leave again even though it appeared to strangers to be locked and secure.  I can fully identify with this scenario since I have experienced the same situation with farmhouses owned by my own family over the years.

I think this is part of the Crown's case which contends that Jeremy was able to gain access to the house whenever he needed to and could have carried out the killings before leaving by the same route. The problem with a member of the family having carried out the crime is that there is a reasonable explanation why their DNA could be at the scene and in Jeremy's case, all around the window entry point.

Thanks John. I might be getting a bit mixed up because I thought Jeremy had already admitted that he could in and out of the farm house undetected - I mean I thought he'd said that before the incident where he got in whilst under surveillance.

Offline VORTEX

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #273 on: April 11, 2011, 06:50:PM »
Lets have a look at Julie Mugfords evidence again...

In her second statement to police, Julie Mugford said Jeremy had talked disparagingly about his "old" father, his "mad" mother, his sister who he said had nothing to live for, and the twins who he said were disturbed. Bamber denied this, saying she was making the allegations only because he jilted her.
 
Mugford's mother also said Bamber had told her he "hated" his adoptive mother and described her as mad. A friend of Mugford's testified that Bamber had said around February 1985 that his parents kept him short of money, his mother was a religious freak, and "I fucking hate my parents." A farm worker testified that he seemed not to get on with Sheila and had once said: "I'm not going to share my money with my sister".

In discussions Mugford said she had dismissed his rants as fantasies, he said he wanted to sedate his parents and set fire to the farmhouse. He reportedly said Sheila would make a good scapegoat. Mugford alleged he had discussed entering the house through the kitchen window because the catch was broken, and leaving it via a different window that latched when it was shut from the outside. She said she spent the weekend before the murders with him in his cottage in Goldhanger, where he dyed his hair black, and that she saw his mother's bicycle there. This was significant because the prosecution later alleged he had used the bicycle to cycle between his cottage and the farmhouse on the night of the murders.

She told police Bamber had telephoned her on at 9.50pm on 6 August to say he had been thinking about the crime all day, was pissed off, and that it was "tonight or never." A few hours later, between 3.00–3.30am, she said he phoned her again to say: "Everything is going well. Something is wrong at the farm. I haven't had any sleep all night … bye honey and I love you lots". Her flatmates' evidence suggested that call came through closer to 3.00am.

He called her later during the morning of 7 August 1985 to tell her that Sheila had gone mad and that a police car was coming to pick her up and bring her to the farmhouse. When she arrived there, she said he pulled her to one side and said: "I should have been an actor!".

Later that evening she asked whether he had done it. He said no, but that a friend of his had, whom he named; the man was a plumber the family had used in the past. He said he had told this friend how he could enter and leave the farmhouse undetected, and that one of his instructions had been for the friend to telephone him from the farm on one of the phones in the house that had a memory redial facility, so that if the police checked it, it would give him an alibi. Everything had gone as planned, he said, except that Nevill had put up a fight, and the friend had become angry and shot him seven times.
 
He had told Sheila to lie down and shoot herself last, Bamber said. He then placed the Bible on her chest so she appeared to have killed herself in a religious frenzy. The children were shot in their sleep, he said. Mugford said Bamber claimed to have paid the friend £2,000.

Don't forget this is the same women who was keen to stick around for a month afterwards until the music stopped and the party was over. It speaks volumes and in reality if he had said any of these things beforehand would she just of accepted them? Don't give me all that talk of she was infactuated with him / she didn't think he was serious etc as I just don't buy that. People make judgements on what partners say all the time and ask themselves "is this the person I want to be with". If Jeremy had REALLY mentioned any of those things Julie Mugford claims he said in the months beforehand he would have been single in hours. If not what kind of person does that make Julie Mugford?

John

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #274 on: April 12, 2011, 03:21:AM »
Mugford's evidence was dynamite and made the difference between prosecuting and not prosecuting Jeremy. The evidence in relation to the silencer was not enough to support a prosecution on its own.

Having seen the documentary this evening and having viewed it twice just to make sure, I am now more convinced than ever that Jeremy was indeed involved in the murders.  There are issues which I found extremely interesting in the documentary and which point to Jeremy's culpability.  I will keep these points under wraps until later today.

andrea

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #275 on: April 12, 2011, 09:05:AM »
Mugford's evidence was dynamite and made the difference between prosecuting and not prosecuting Jeremy. The evidence in relation to the silencer was not enough to support a prosecution on its own.

Having seen the documentary this evening and having viewed it twice just to make sure, I am now more convinced than ever that Jeremy was indeed involved in the murders.  There are issues which I found extremely interesting in the documentary and which point to Jeremy's culpability.  I will keep these points under wraps until later today.



oh you spoil sport. im off to work soon, post them now  ;)

Offline grahameb

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #276 on: April 12, 2011, 10:01:AM »
I might be wrong in this Kaldin, but what the prosecution were attempting to show was that Jeremy could gain entry to the farmhouse at any time and leave again even though it appeared to strangers to be locked and secure.  I can fully identify with this scenario since I have experienced the same situation with farmhouses owned by my own family over the years.

I think this is part of the Crown's case which contends that Jeremy was able to gain access to the house whenever he needed to and could have carried out the killings before leaving by the same route. The problem with a member of the family having carried out the crime is that there is a reasonable explanation why their DNA could be at the scene and in Jeremy's case, all around the window entry point.
I didn't think that DNA testing began until the late 80's. In fact the first test was carried out on a Guanan boy in 1985. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DNA testing was not used in the Bamber case?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #277 on: April 12, 2011, 10:04:AM »
I might be wrong in this Kaldin, but what the prosecution were attempting to show was that Jeremy could gain entry to the farmhouse at any time and leave again even though it appeared to strangers to be locked and secure.  I can fully identify with this scenario since I have experienced the same situation with farmhouses owned by my own family over the years.

I think this is part of the Crown's case which contends that Jeremy was able to gain access to the house whenever he needed to and could have carried out the killings before leaving by the same route. The problem with a member of the family having carried out the crime is that there is a reasonable explanation why their DNA could be at the scene and in Jeremy's case, all around the window entry point.
I didn't think that DNA testing began until the late 80's. In fact the first test was carried out on a Guanan boy in 1985. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DNA testing was not used in the Bamber case?

No it wasn't as it wasn't available then. It was used for the appeal of 2002 re the silencer.

Offline grahameb

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #278 on: April 12, 2011, 10:05:AM »
Mugford's evidence was dynamite and made the difference between prosecuting and not prosecuting Jeremy. The evidence in relation to the silencer was not enough to support a prosecution on its own.

Having seen the documentary this evening and having viewed it twice just to make sure, I am now more convinced than ever that Jeremy was indeed involved in the murders.  There are issues which I found extremely interesting in the documentary and which point to Jeremy's culpability.  I will keep these points under wraps until later today.



oh you spoil sport. im off to work soon, post them now  ;)
If that is so then Mugford should have been charged as an accessory after the fact. Why wasn't she?

Offline grahameb

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #279 on: April 12, 2011, 10:06:AM »
I might be wrong in this Kaldin, but what the prosecution were attempting to show was that Jeremy could gain entry to the farmhouse at any time and leave again even though it appeared to strangers to be locked and secure.  I can fully identify with this scenario since I have experienced the same situation with farmhouses owned by my own family over the years.

I think this is part of the Crown's case which contends that Jeremy was able to gain access to the house whenever he needed to and could have carried out the killings before leaving by the same route. The problem with a member of the family having carried out the crime is that there is a reasonable explanation why their DNA could be at the scene and in Jeremy's case, all around the window entry point.
I didn't think that DNA testing began until the late 80's. In fact the first test was carried out on a Guanan boy in 1985. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DNA testing was not used in the Bamber case?

No it wasn't as it wasn't available then. It was used for the appeal of 2002 re the silencer.
But John said that Bambers DNA was all over the window?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #280 on: April 12, 2011, 10:43:AM »
I might be wrong in this Kaldin, but what the prosecution were attempting to show was that Jeremy could gain entry to the farmhouse at any time and leave again even though it appeared to strangers to be locked and secure.  I can fully identify with this scenario since I have experienced the same situation with farmhouses owned by my own family over the years.

I think this is part of the Crown's case which contends that Jeremy was able to gain access to the house whenever he needed to and could have carried out the killings before leaving by the same route. The problem with a member of the family having carried out the crime is that there is a reasonable explanation why their DNA could be at the scene and in Jeremy's case, all around the window entry point.
I didn't think that DNA testing began until the late 80's. In fact the first test was carried out on a Guanan boy in 1985. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DNA testing was not used in the Bamber case?

No it wasn't as it wasn't available then. It was used for the appeal of 2002 re the silencer.
But John said that Bambers DNA was all over the window?

Ah yes, I overlooked that. Perhaps he meant fingerprints or something.  ;D

Offline grahameb

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #281 on: April 12, 2011, 11:12:AM »
I might be wrong in this Kaldin, but what the prosecution were attempting to show was that Jeremy could gain entry to the farmhouse at any time and leave again even though it appeared to strangers to be locked and secure.  I can fully identify with this scenario since I have experienced the same situation with farmhouses owned by my own family over the years.

I think this is part of the Crown's case which contends that Jeremy was able to gain access to the house whenever he needed to and could have carried out the killings before leaving by the same route. The problem with a member of the family having carried out the crime is that there is a reasonable explanation why their DNA could be at the scene and in Jeremy's case, all around the window entry point.
I didn't think that DNA testing began until the late 80's. In fact the first test was carried out on a Guanan boy in 1985. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DNA testing was not used in the Bamber case?

No it wasn't as it wasn't available then. It was used for the appeal of 2002 re the silencer.
But John said that Bambers DNA was all over the window?

Ah yes, I overlooked that. Perhaps he meant fingerprints or something.  ;D
Avery clumsy burglar wasn't he?  ;D

John

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #282 on: April 12, 2011, 03:28:PM »
I might be wrong in this Kaldin, but what the prosecution were attempting to show was that Jeremy could gain entry to the farmhouse at any time and leave again even though it appeared to strangers to be locked and secure.  I can fully identify with this scenario since I have experienced the same situation with farmhouses owned by my own family over the years.

I think this is part of the Crown's case which contends that Jeremy was able to gain access to the house whenever he needed to and could have carried out the killings before leaving by the same route. The problem with a member of the family having carried out the crime is that there is a reasonable explanation why their DNA could be at the scene and in Jeremy's case, all around the window entry point.
I didn't think that DNA testing began until the late 80's. In fact the first test was carried out on a Guanan boy in 1985. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DNA testing was not used in the Bamber case?

No it wasn't as it wasn't available then. It was used for the appeal of 2002 re the silencer.
But John said that Bambers DNA was all over the window?

His DNA was all over the window as he used it to get into the farmhouse at times.  Problem being as you have pointed out, that DNA testing wasn't perfected until the early 1980's.

John

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #283 on: April 12, 2011, 03:36:PM »
I might be wrong in this Kaldin, but what the prosecution were attempting to show was that Jeremy could gain entry to the farmhouse at any time and leave again even though it appeared to strangers to be locked and secure.  I can fully identify with this scenario since I have experienced the same situation with farmhouses owned by my own family over the years.


I don't understand why this would apply to farm houses in particular, John

It's just my experience that most old farmhouses haven't the best security compared to modern dwellings with double glazing everywhere.  I had an experience some years ago when a burglar attempted to gain access to my property but were unable to negotiate the double glazing which had been fitted the previous year.  They caused much damage however and left fingerprints and blood behind. Still waiting for a DNA match to come up though.

Newbury1

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Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #284 on: April 12, 2011, 03:38:PM »
Having seen the documentary this evening and having viewed it twice just to make sure, I am now more convinced than ever that Jeremy was indeed involved in the murders.  There are issues which I found extremely interesting in the documentary and which point to Jeremy's culpability.  I will keep these points under wraps until later today.

John, when are you able to let us have the points you refer to above?