Author Topic: do the fingerprints really prove anything.  (Read 9539 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2014, 11:39:AM »
 Whether it be a half-wit or a professional,I'd still waver at the thought of them brandishing a weapon,regardless of what it was because they remain to have the upper hand like it or not. The same as Sheila had,even if her father had been 7ft tall and as wide.
I certainly wouldn't argue with either,that's for sure.

Offline lookout

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2014, 12:02:PM »
Nobody can reason with the unreasonable !! Sheilas' mind was already set. Her twins WEREN'T going to be looked after by somebody else ( i.e.CC's girlfriend ) Neither was she going to be hustled off to Eastbourne to recouperate.Her sudden hostility towards her father for failing to agree with what his daughter had wanted,so Sheila felt let-down by him also,and finally the hatred for her mother who'd ruled her life from day one.
Motive enough I'd say. The strongest of minds can only tolerate so much,and Sheilas' mind had been suppressed for years until it exploded like a volcano. Jeremy was NO threat to her,neither was the dog.

I cannot,and have NEVER pictured Jeremy in this scenario. Regardless of what the media,or any author has to say on the matter.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2014, 05:53:PM »
Strange how " Taff " Jones immediately said a " domestic ",4 murders and a suicide.Police MUST know at first glance from past experience. The man didn't hesitate,so I'd like to know how he'd reached that conclusion before " things " were moved,etc.

First glance means nothing.  That is the whole reason police are said to have done a poor job.  They went with first glance instead of investigating more thoroughly.  That resulted in key evidence being found days later.

What matters is what is determined AFTER all the evidence has been processed.  After the evidence was processed it became apparent Sheila neve rfired a wepaon, had not killed anyone else and after her death was moved by her killer and her killer also has shot her with the moderator attached but then removed it and put it away after her death.   

You want to ignore all the processing of the evidence and go with firth impression of police who had not experienced because the evidence is so damning.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2014, 06:01:PM »
Damning evidence ? Where ? Because the crafty cops couldn't pin Jeremy to the murders,they arrested  him for the caravan burglary then decided to interrogate him for the murders.
Just say for instance that Jeremy hadn't burgled the place-------what then ?
Where was the evidence going to come from ? Gossip ?

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2014, 06:06:PM »
Damning evidence ? Where ? Because the crafty cops couldn't pin Jeremy to the murders,they arrested  him for the caravan burglary then decided to interrogate him for the murders.
Just say for instance that Jeremy hadn't burgled the place-------what then ?
Where was the evidence going to come from ? Gossip ?

The full page of evidence that you always claim is too long to read and that you simply dismiss because you don't want to face the truth.

In order to be a competent advocate you first need to learn about and comprehend all the evidence that proves Jeremy did it.  The next step is to try to refute it.  You can't refute something by ignoring it or not understanding it.  You refuse to learn about he evidence and thus can't be a competent advocate.


 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Patti

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2014, 06:10:PM »
First glance means nothing.  That is the whole reason police are said to have done a poor job.  They went with first glance instead of investigating more thoroughly.  That resulted in key evidence being found days later.

What matters is what is determined AFTER all the evidence has been processed.  After the evidence was processed it became apparent Sheila neve rfired a wepaon, had not killed anyone else and after her death was moved by her killer and her killer also has shot her with the moderator attached but then removed it and put it away after her death.   

You want to ignore all the processing of the evidence and go with firth impression of police who had not experienced because the evidence is so damning.

Hi Scorpio  ;D

There is no evidence to say that Sheila never handled a rifle or gun whilst she lived on the farm. Even if she never used a weapon she would have seen how they had been used. Its not rocket science how to use one. Sheila went on a shoot to Scotland as a beater, thus makes the none interest in shooting fail as she was clearly present with her husband at the time.

There is clearly no evidence to say that Jeremy put the moderator back in the gun cupboard. There are no fingerprints on the moderator and even if fingerprints were on, they became damaged when the moderator was found in the cupboard.  Not only was the moderator handled and passed round it was examined and taken into the crime scene area. Its not safe to suggest that Jeremy had and its equally unsafe to say Sheila had its matter of what you believe.

Sheila or Jeremy could have placed the moderator in cupboard. Its not so concrete IMO... ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline lookout

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2014, 06:19:PM »
The full page of evidence that you always claim is too long to read and that you simply dismiss because you don't want to face the truth.

In order to be a competent advocate you first need to learn about and comprehend all the evidence that proves Jeremy did it.  The next step is to try to refute it.  You can't refute something by ignoring it or not understanding it.  You refuse to learn about he evidence and thus can't be a competent advocate.





But you keep going on about " evidence " and there's nothing coming forthwith ??
Long,drawn-out posts are only there to cover the MAIN theme which is " the ton of evidence " that you seem to have.?

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2014, 12:36:AM »
Hi Scorpio  ;D

There is no evidence to say that Sheila never handled a rifle or gun whilst she lived on the farm. Even if she never used a weapon she would have seen how they had been used. Its not rocket science how to use one. Sheila went on a shoot to Scotland as a beater, thus makes the none interest in shooting fail as she was clearly present with her husband at the time.

There is clearly no evidence to say that Jeremy put the moderator back in the gun cupboard. There are no fingerprints on the moderator and even if fingerprints were on, they became damaged when the moderator was found in the cupboard.  Not only was the moderator handled and passed round it was examined and taken into the crime scene area. Its not safe to suggest that Jeremy had and its equally unsafe to say Sheila had its matter of what you believe.

Sheila or Jeremy could have placed the moderator in cupboard. Its not so concrete IMO... ;D ;D ;D ;D

The evidence was that Sheila may have gone on a trip to Scotland.  Whether she actually went with the realtives when they were shooting for support or not is unclear.  That doesn't exhibit an interest in guns even if she did go for support let alone suggest she would be able to fire any of the shotguns they used.

Seeing someone fire a shotgun from a distance doesn't mena one would be capable of loading and operating  ashotgun let alone a semi-auto.  The first semi-auto wasn't purchased until the end of 1984 and was rarely used.  She was rarely on the farm while it was there.  Jeremy allegedly tried to teach her how to load a magazine, probably to get her prints on it,  but she refused to try.

The reality is that she would not have known she needed to manually chamber a round let alone known how to do so thus even with a loaded magazine to place in the gun she still would not have been able to get it to fire.

As for the moderator, how could she have put it away after she was killed with it?  For tha tmatter how coudl she have shot herself without getting GSR on her clothing?  How could she have placed the bible in a pool of her own blood after she was dead?  How could she have moved her body after she was dead?  These are all indications that someone else killed her.

How could she have killed everyone without getting their blood on her especially Nevill's blood as he was being beaten?  How could she have been bashing him with the rifle and yet not have received a scratch form the broken stock which broke where the killer would have been holding it as it broke?   The gun was covered in blood how could such blood not get on her hands and clothing?  The killer clearly wore gloves that is why there were no prints in the blood.  The killer also changed clothing.  Sheila would not have had any reason to wear gloves or to change her clothing and if she had done so the clothes she changed out of would have been present. 

So we have evidence she didn't kill anyone else and evidence she didn't kill herself.

To unbiased, rational people that means someone else killed them all.  I realize that is not the take of Jeremy supporters but Jeremy supporters have nothing at all to refute this evidence they just ignore it.  that doesn't make it go away and unless refuted no judges are going to set Jeremy free.

Jeremy clearly lied about the gun being left out in the kitchen with the bullets and no moderator attached.  His story of why he took the gun out was not credible.  Taking it out period to shoot rabbits was not credible because he never did such before.  Even worse though his stories about hearing them is ludicrous and seeing them as it was getitng dark little better. His story of the gun being found without the moderator and scope attached because it could not be stored with them attached was also a lie.  he also woudl have wanted to use them in order to shoot rabbits.

He even lied about Sheila firing the murder wepaon and all weapons in the house.  The bullets were clearly staged after the fact which proves his claims of leaving the gun out was false.  Not even Jeremy could think up a lie to account for how the killer could have used 25 bullets from a stash of 48-50 bullets and yet there could be 30 remaining.  Did they multiply from use like the biblical fish and loaves of bread?  Jeremy also lied about the phone being broken he replaced a perfectly good phone with the one from the bedroom.  WHy would a crazy Sheila go get the moderator out to use let alone put it away after killing everyone else?  But she can't have put it away after she was dead anyway.

He clearly made up Nevill's call as well because:

1) Sheila clearly the gun had not been left out and Sheila had done nothing and thus there is no way Nevill would have called to make up such a story

2) There was no opportunity for Nevill to make such a call. The parents were ambushed in their bedroom, where there was no phone.   That is unquestionably where the events began and then Nevill went to the kitchen where he was killed.  When coudl he have made the call?  No one who supports Jeremy has come up with anything credible at all as to how Sheila would have allowed Neivll to make the call, let alone why he would call Jeremy instead of police.  In fact no supporters can explain why he would need anyone to help disarm her.  He could have done so himself otherwise could have armed himself.     

Then there is Julie's testimony which the evidence comports with that Jeremy planned to frame SHeial and did so.

Trying to pretend that there is no evidence against Jeremy is a complete and total waste of time.  That lie is meant to avoid having to actually deal with the evidence but again avoiding it and pretending it doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 01:13:AM by scipio_usmc »
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Patti

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2014, 12:37:AM »
Sorry Scip but I'm not reading all that. Is there anyway you can condense it? :-[

Offline lookout

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2014, 10:51:AM »
The full page of evidence that you always claim is too long to read and that you simply dismiss because you don't want to face the truth.

In order to be a competent advocate you first need to learn about and comprehend all the evidence that proves Jeremy did it.  The next step is to try to refute it.  You can't refute something by ignoring it or not understanding it.  You refuse to learn about he evidence and thus can't be a competent advocate.




Excuses,excuses. You're full of wind and water,like the barbers cat.

Offline susan

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2014, 10:52:AM »
lookout did not know the barbers cat was full of wind and water poor pusskins ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Mr. Gee

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2014, 11:01:AM »
Sorry Scip but I'm not reading all that. Is there anyway you can condense it? :-[
One thing you learn at Bible college is how to be concise and clear. I can never read the Puritans as there are so many branches and reasonings to their writings. We were taught to be able to get the message over to the general public is to have 3 or 4 short points. The ordinary person does not have the capacity to take it all in and generally only remembers the last thing they read. We must recognise this failing in people by making things short and concise.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2014, 04:24:PM »
One thing you learn at Bible college is how to be concise and clear. I can never read the Puritans as there are so many branches and reasonings to their writings. We were taught to be able to get the message over to the general public is to have 3 or 4 short points. The ordinary person does not have the capacity to take it all in and generally only remembers the last thing they read. We must recognise this failing in people by making things short and concise.

More like some do not have the desire to take the points in, particuarly Jeremy supporters who always say the same thing- that there is no evidence and then when it is all recounted they say you wrote too much and they refuse to read it so as to close their eyes to it.

I could have gone into far more detail on each point.  I was concise with respect to each point and raised the points that matter most. It is far shorter than all the nonsense posted by ike and various authors including Caffell whose book is largely worthless with respect to the cas eit onyl has a few tidbits relevant.

Jeremy supporters have no ability to refute the evidence so instead live in denial and simply say there is no evidence. As I have said many timea living in denial at most impacts yourself.  It is not going to convince others to reject the evidence and certainly is not going to convince a court to release Jeremy.  You have to take the evidence head on and refute it if you want to convince others of his innocence.  Denying the evidence exists doesn't do that in any way, shape or form.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Patti

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2014, 07:09:PM »
More like some do not have the desire to take the points in, particuarly Jeremy supporters who always say the same thing- that there is no evidence and then when it is all recounted they say you wrote too much and they refuse to read it so as to close their eyes to it.

I could have gone into far more detail on each point.  I was concise with respect to each point and raised the points that matter most. It is far shorter than all the nonsense posted by ike and various authors including Caffell whose book is largely worthless with respect to the cas eit onyl has a few tidbits relevant.

Jeremy supporters have no ability to refute the evidence so instead live in denial and simply say there is no evidence. As I have said many timea living in denial at most impacts yourself.  It is not going to convince others to reject the evidence and certainly is not going to convince a court to release Jeremy.  You have to take the evidence head on and refute it if you want to convince others of his innocence.  Denying the evidence exists doesn't do that in any way, shape or form.

Talking about evidence Scipo...:)

Can you provide us with the following:

Forensic evidence that Jeremy got int WHF and got out?

Evidence that Jeremy Bamber was in the main bedroom?

Evidence to prove conclusively that he never received a call from his father?

Just askin  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: do the fingerprints really prove anything.
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2014, 07:25:PM »
Talking about evidence Scipo...:)

Can you provide us with the following:

Forensic evidence that Jeremy got int WHF and got out?

Evidence that Jeremy Bamber was in the main bedroom?

Evidence to prove conclusively that he never received a call from his father?

Just askin  ;D ;D ;D ;D

The evidence that he got in and out is that he scratched a bathroom window to unlock it and moved everything out of the sink in orde rot climb out the kitchen window.

Such evidence is not necessary though and even without it it woudl not change the case at all.  All that is needed is to establish he had the ability to enter and exist through the windows and he proved that ability himself by admitting it and even doing so in front of police.  There is no requirement for such evidence to be beyond a reasonable doubt because such is not an element of murder- only the essential legal elements of a crime need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

The evidence I posted proves that Sheila did not kill anyone else or herself. That means someone else had to have done it. Even the defense admitted that if Sheila didn't do it Jeremy had to have done it.

Unless Sheila did it the call from Nevill to Jeremy quite obviously never happened.  So the fact Sheial didn't do it proves there was no call fro nevill to Jeremy.  Jeremy was the killer so can't have received a call nor would Nevill have had any reason to call anyone fingering Sheial unless she were the killer.

In addition, there was no way for Nevill to call anoyne.  The killer entered the master bedroom and shot both parents, that is how the incident began.  There wa sno phone in the bedroom for him to use- Jeremy took care of that by his own admission.  Nevill then fled being unable to speak as a result of his wounds.  Nevill had no opportunity to call anyone prior to the the shooting starting.  So the claim Jeremy was called prior to any shooting starting is nonsense.  The fact he was there at WHF not his house to receive any call makes it even more nonsense.

Jeremy is the only one with motive, opportunity, knowledge of the murders after they happened and he actively framed his sister including by lying baout leaving the gun in the kitchen and staging bullets that gave away he staged them because he left too many. He told his girlfriend of his plans including lying about receving a call for Nevill to use as an alibi and told her after the crimes he was responsible.

The cas eis so strong that Jeremy supporters ar eunable to refute it and instead simply live in denial and refuse to face the evidence.  Again that doesn't make it go away it must be refuted to counter it.  Just hiding from it and pretending it doesn't exist acocmplishes nothing.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry