Jeremy Just An Ordinary Boy

[Jan]

It may be a perception but I have to say I agree with Alias and to say that Scipio did not make "personal" insults I feel is way off the mark.

I don't expect mods to read every post , but I think moving forward and not looking back , if a poster feels there has been a personal insult made , then that is against the forum rules , so they should just report it.

Then only complain if they feel it is not handled correctly.

It would , IMO, be very sad to see this forum become a battle ground , when there is absolutely no need for it.

I can see there is some past history , but personally I have not got a clue what it is about , and I am quite happy to leave it that way as it is none of my business.

[Jane]

I haven´t really felt that, but if you say so. You have been discussing me in PMs with scipio - somehow I don´t like that thought...
Guess it is my problem. I can´t answer back as well as if this were my own language, which puts me at a disadvantage, and I should probably just stay away. Not trying to play the victim, those are just the facts, and I don´t feel as comfortable here as I used to.

P.S. You don´t feel that it is personal because you are not on the receiving end (maybe even agreeing with him deep down). I do.

Alias, I've ALWAYS done my best to be fair, so I WILL hold in mind that English ISN'T your first language and I DO understand that because of it you may feel more vulnerable than some of us when dealing with his unpleasantness, but please make NO mistake that I am FURIOUS at your suggestion that I've PM'd Scipio to discuss you........................nor do I believe you have the right to insinuate that I'm dismissing it because I'm NOT on the receiving end. I understand VERY well what it feels like.

[scipio_usmc]

Alias, I have reprimanded Scipio until I'm blue in the face. It's all water off a duck's back, to him. He call people less than polite names like we use courtesies -well, MOSTLY and SOME of us- but I never feel with him, that it's personal. I would ask of you, how long, having reprimanded him, do you think he should be given the "cold shoulder"? I ask, because if we should employ this with every poster the forum may very quickly reach the point where no one was speaking.

What names did I call Alias? She is whining because of a post where I called her suggestions nonsense though she has done the same thing to others.

She whined in the past because I wrote she missed something major so was not a very good detective.  If some is so sensitive that they can't handle such things then they should not be lobbing similar sorts at others.  She seems to be able to dish it out but not to be able to take it.

You would think by the way she is acting I am running around calling people morons and buffoons or saying that women should be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant.

She said she is a strong independent woman and this frightens me and I take it out on her.  It doesn't, if women truly want equal treatment they should not whine when they get it.  I have been far more harsh on several male posters than on any posters here who have asserted to be female.  But I do not walk on eggshells it was simply because of the nature of what those males posted.

Numerous times people have criticized me complaining that I consider the female posters here subhuman and stupid.  That was their words though not mine.  I have never called anyone stupid at most I have called people ignorant of the facts and evidence but only in cases where such was true.  Ignorance and stupidity are 2 very different things. The ignorant can learn, stupid is forever.

Mind you if someone does call me stupid or some other names I don't care.  That just shows they have no argument if all they can do is say someone is dumb and an idiot and so forth, which I have been called here.  The best way to respond to tha tis to refute the claims of the person and then to say if someone dumb like me can refute your claims then they were extremely bad arguments.   

Making things personal accomplishes nothing.  Taking things personally doesn't either.  If your position is not strong and someone is able to tear it apart some seem to take that as an affront because they don't want to admit they took a poor position or because it harms something they badly want to believe. 

Those who want to believe Jeremy is innocent are in a way like those who want to believe in God.  Attacking their beliefs is taken as a personal affront.  Those of us who think Jeremy is innocent don't have a grudge against Jeremy so it rolls off most of us when our positions are challenged.  We do not take it personally or make things personal. 





   
 

[Patti]

Alias, I've ALWAYS done my best to be fair, so I WILL hold in mind that English ISN'T your first language and I DO understand that because of it you may feel more vulnerable than some of us when dealing with his unpleasantness, but please make NO mistake that I am FURIOUS at your suggestion that I've PM'd Scipio to discuss you........................nor do I believe you have the right to insinuate that I'm dismissing it because I'm NOT on the receiving end. I understand VERY well what it feels like.

April please don't be furious at Alias. I think what she was trying to say is that Scipo had been reprimanded back scenes through PM's that is all.

[Alias]

scipio:

She said she is a strong independent woman and this frightens me and I take it out on her.  It doesn't, if women truly want equal treatment they should not whine when they get it.

Where did I say that?
Again you are making things up about me! This is intolerable!

[Alias]

April please don't be furious at Alias. I think what she was trying to say is that Scipo had been reprimanded back scenes through PM's that is all.

Yes, that´s right.

[Jane]

It may be a perception but I have to say I agree with Alias and to say that Scipio did not make "personal" insults I feel is way off the mark.

I don't expect mods to read every post , but I think moving forward and not looking back , if a poster feels there has been a personal insult made , then that is against the forum rules , so they should just report it.

Then only complain if they feel it is not handled correctly.

It would , IMO, be very sad to see this forum become a battle ground , when there is absolutely no need for it.

I can see there is some past history , but personally I have not got a clue what it is about , and I am quite happy to leave it that way as it is none of my business.

Jansus, whilst I can't say I've made particular notice of his posts to Alias any MORE in sulting than those he makes to others, it HAS been on behalf of Alias that I've seen fit to reprimand him because Of how upset Alias has been by them.

You are totally correct, IMO, that there are agendas at work here that go back a long way To the best of my knowledge, this is still a free country and we are all entitled to our opinions. 

[ngb1066]

What names did I call Alias? She is whining because of a post where I called her suggestions nonsense though she has done the same thing to others.

She whined in the past because I wrote she missed something major so was not a very good detective.  If some is so sensitive that they can't handle such things then they should not be lobbing similar sorts at others.  She seems to be able to dish it out but not to be able to take it.

You would think by the way she is acting I am running around calling people morons and buffoons or saying that women should be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant.

She said she is a strong independent woman and this frightens me and I take it out on her.  It doesn't, if women truly want equal treatment they should not whine when they get it.  I have been far more harsh on several male posters than on any posters here who have asserted to be female.  But I do not walk on eggshells it was simply because of the nature of what those males posted.

Numerous times people have criticized me complaining that I consider the female posters here subhuman and stupid.  That was their words though not mine.  I have never called anyone stupid at most I have called people ignorant of the facts and evidence but only in cases where such was true.  Ignorance and stupidity are 2 very different things. The ignorant can learn, stupid is forever.

Mind you if someone does call me stupid or some other names I don't care.  That just shows they have no argument if all they can do is say someone is dumb and an idiot and so forth, which I have been called here.  The best way to respond to tha tis to refute the claims of the person and then to say if someone dumb like me can refute your claims then they were extremely bad arguments.   

Making things personal accomplishes nothing.  Taking things personally doesn't either.  If your position is not strong and someone is able to tear it apart some seem to take that as an affront because they don't want to admit they took a poor position or because it harms something they badly want to believe. 

Those who want to believe Jeremy is innocent are in a way like those who want to believe in God.  Attacking their beliefs is taken as a personal affront.  Those of us who think Jeremy is innocent don't have a grudge against Jeremy so it rolls off most of us when our positions are challenged.  We do not take it personally or make things personal. 





   
 

The problem is Scipio that you give every appearance of making things personal when you attack members whose viewpoint is different from yours.  This causes offence and it does not stimulate debate or advance your argument.

[Jane]

What names did I call Alias? She is whining because of a post where I called her suggestions nonsense though she has done the same thing to others.

She whined in the past because I wrote she missed something major so was not a very good detective.  If some is so sensitive that they can't handle such things then they should not be lobbing similar sorts at others.  She seems to be able to dish it out but not to be able to take it.

You would think by the way she is acting I am running around calling people morons and buffoons or saying that women should be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant.

She said she is a strong independent woman and this frightens me and I take it out on her.  It doesn't, if women truly want equal treatment they should not whine when they get it.  I have been far more harsh on several male posters than on any posters here who have asserted to be female.  But I do not walk on eggshells it was simply because of the nature of what those males posted.

Numerous times people have criticized me complaining that I consider the female posters here subhuman and stupid.  That was their words though not mine.  I have never called anyone stupid at most I have called people ignorant of the facts and evidence but only in cases where such was true.  Ignorance and stupidity are 2 very different things. The ignorant can learn, stupid is forever.

Mind you if someone does call me stupid or some other names I don't care.  That just shows they have no argument if all they can do is say someone is dumb and an idiot and so forth, which I have been called here.  The best way to respond to tha tis to refute the claims of the person and then to say if someone dumb like me can refute your claims then they were extremely bad arguments.   

Making things personal accomplishes nothing.  Taking things personally doesn't either.  If your position is not strong and someone is able to tear it apart some seem to take that as an affront because they don't want to admit they took a poor position or because it harms something they badly want to believe. 

Those who want to believe Jeremy is innocent are in a way like those who want to believe in God.  Attacking their beliefs is taken as a personal affront.  Those of us who think Jeremy is innocent don't have a grudge against Jeremy so it rolls off most of us when our positions are challenged.  We do not take it personally or make things personal. 





   
 

Scipio, there seems to be a greater language problem here than one would believe possible. Whilst it MAY be permissible to accuse an American woman of "whining", to a European woman it is the grossest of insults.

Posters have complained that you called them "sub human and stupid" because the words ylou used made the feel that way.

You are no more competent that I to tell others what the should/shouldn't feel.

That you don't listen to these com plain ts tends to make life rather difficult for mods/admin b ecause we're the ones who have to deal with it.

[Jane]

Yes, that´s right.

Alias,  You see, I DO understand what it feels like to be under attack with no place to hide. I react accordingly

[scipio_usmc]

I haven´t really felt that, but if you say so. You have been discussing me in PMs with scipio - somehow I don´t like that thought...
Guess it is my problem. I can´t answer back as well as if this were my own language, which puts me at a disadvantage, and I should probably just stay away. Not trying to play the victim, those are just the facts, and I don´t feel as comfortable here as I used to.

P.S. You don´t feel that it is personal because you are not on the receiving end (maybe even agreeing with him deep down). I do.

1) I don't gossip about anyone in PMs.  I will tell people straight to their face pretty much anything.  The only birdies in my ear were talking about personal issues with respect to Grahame that he himself posted about and referring me to nonpersonal things he said under other names that demonstrated his bias.  I didn't respond about the personal claims though. I am one of those who thinks it is worse to talk behind someone's back than to their face, unless they are suicidal. 

2) Neither April nor anyone else has approached me to discuss you.  I have been chastised in general terms.

3) I don't have any vendetta against you.  You are taking things personally by your own choice, they are not being made personally against you.

Those calling me (or others for that matter) a bully(s) seem to view me as a gunslinger from an old western who is running around daring people to draw so I can kill them.  To some extent that is true.  I want the other side to refute the evidence and challenge them to do so.

When guns are being used the person is indeed a bully and the people are scared of death.  The challenge is to see who is faster and more accurate with a gun.  Here there are no guns the challenge is to see who has the superior arguments and facts on their side.

Far from being a bully I am challenging people to actual use this forum for what it is for.  A forum like this is for people to debate the facts and evidence and present arguments.  If you are scared to do so because you fear your argument is too weak and will be disproved then it means the argument can't be that good.  If you have a good argument and the facts on your side then you will not be scared to raise them to defeat the "gunslingers".

Far from most being intimidated by me and others there are people making claims they know will challenged and some of them are rather absurd.  Absurd posts are the ones peopel should be scared to make. When you make absurd posts you look silly to others or in some instances dishonest.  Yet people do it anyway so try to pretend that things are too rough and tumble here is melodrama simply.

   

[lookout]

Define an " absurd post ".

[Jan]

I think you will find that people do not post "absurd" posts deliberately . A lot of it is down to interpretation of what is presented. So I don't see ANY reason for you to call posters liars/stupid or dishonest because they are posting what they think is correct. If you have a good counter argument backed up documentation then just present it and stop talking down to people . You can say you don't know what you are doing because people have made it quite clear of the perception of your posts.

If we say we find a post rude then try and look at it from our point of view for a change.

I have seen you make very personal posts when there has been no need all.Especiailly when people have been asking genuinely about your posts and then you turn round and lash out at them .

[Patti]

I think you will find that people do not post "absurd" posts deliberately . A lot of it is down to interpretation of what is presented. So I don't see ANY reason for you to call posters liars/stupid or dishonest because they are posting what they think is correct. If you have a good counter argument backed up documentation then just present it and stop talking down to people . You can say you don't know what you are doing because people have made it quite clear of the perception of your posts.

If we say we find a post rude then try and look at it from our point of view for a change.

I have seen you make very personal posts when there has been no need all.Especiailly when people have been asking genuinely about your posts and then you turn round and lash out at them .

Well said Jansus

Its not what you say its how you say it. Talking down to people is not nice to take, especially if you are trying your hardest to be polite. 

[Jane]

1) I don't gossip about anyone in PMs.  I will tell people straight to their face pretty much anything.  The only birdies in my ear were talking about personal issues with respect to Grahame that he himself posted about and referring me to nonpersonal things he said under other names that demonstrated his bias.  I didn't respond about the personal claims though. I am one of those who thinks it is worse to talk behind someone's back than to their face, unless they are suicidal. 

2) Neither April nor anyone else has approached me to discuss you.  I have been chastised in general terms.

3) I don't have any vendetta against you.  You are taking things personally by your own choice, they are not being made personally against you.

Those calling me (or others for that matter) a bully(s) seem to view me as a gunslinger from an old western who is running around daring people to draw so I can kill them.  To some extent that is true.  I want the other side to refute the evidence and challenge them to do so.

When guns are being used the person is indeed a bully and the people are scared of death.  The challenge is to see who is faster and more accurate with a gun.  Here there are no guns the challenge is to see who has the superior arguments and facts on their side.

Far from being a bully I am challenging people to actual use this forum for what it is for.  A forum like this is for people to debate the facts and evidence and present arguments.  If you are scared to do so because you fear your argument is too weak and will be disproved then it means the argument can't be that good.  If you have a good argument and the facts on your side then you will not be scared to raise them to defeat the "gunslingers".

Far from most being intimidated by me and others there are people making claims they know will challenged and some of them are rather absurd.  Absurd posts are the ones peopel should be scared to make. When you make absurd posts you look silly to others or in some instances dishonest.  Yet people do it anyway so try to pretend that things are too rough and tumble here is melodrama simply.

   

"Absurd" is in YOUR mind, NOT the mind of the poster who may have gone to great lengths to think it through from their own perspective.