Author Topic: British Hostage David Haines  (Read 7464 times)

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Offline ngb1066

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2014, 04:41:PM »
Thanks for your response Neil.  I understand this is controversial and against the current grain:  How confident are you personally, that the three recent beheading incidents are genuine, as per portrayed in media?

I think they are genuine because if they were not too many people, in particular family members, would have to be in on the scam.  However other incidents would be perfectly possible to organise as false flag operations.  For example, the use of poison gas in Syria and bombings, rocket attacks etc.  These I always view with great suspicion.

The first internationally famous false flag event was the Reichstag fire.  It was effective and resulted in Hitler and the Nazis gaining total control.

 

Offline Roch

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2014, 04:59:PM »
I think they are genuine because if they were not too many people, in particular family members, would have to be in on the scam.  However other incidents would be perfectly possible to organise as false flag operations.  For example, the use of poison gas in Syria and bombings, rocket attacks etc.  These I always view with great suspicion.

The first internationally famous false flag event was the Reichstag fire.  It was effective and resulted in Hitler and the Nazis gaining total control.

Thanks for your opinion on this Neil.  I've stated my self that these could be genuine, savage acts committed by extremists.

I've also tried to rationalize how it might be possible to achieve the faking these scenarios. 

One the one hand, if the victims were ever discovered alive in the future, it could be claimed by US or other powers that ISIS themselves had faked the beheadings (though this would prove difficult because questions would arise as to how the beheadings were not officially identified as being fake in the first place).

Another option would be to pay enormous amounts of money to each victim, providing them with a new identity and effectively buying their silence.  The CIA do buy people.  And their spending power is immense. 

There is a third option which is more depressing and I'm sure people could work it out.

I remain 50/50 on whether these incidents are genuine or not.  But I know one thing for sure, the result of the incidents is to elevate the threat of ISIS in the minds of people across the world, thereby hastening the demise of ISIS via American / NATO weaponry.

That doesn't really add up for me in relation to ISIS wanting an Islamic Caliphate, as the Caliphate would effectively be destoyed?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 05:02:PM by Roch »

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2014, 12:53:AM »
The US went to Iraq to fight and decisively win a war.  The policy was outlined here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

Look at the second point in the four core missions that needed to be established:

'fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars'. 

Where the Americans seemed to go wrong was not with decisively beating the Iraqi forces, Republican Guard and Comical Ali et al.  In those respects, the core mission was achieved.  It was the chaos that grew within vacuum left by the removal of Saddam Hussein / Baathist rule -  the so called 'insurgency' that the US and its allies somehow overlooked or refused to consider.  Disparate Iraqi forces and foreign fighters basically waged a secterian guerilla war lasting years and inflicting heinous casualties among the Iraqi population. 

There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.  Your very own CIA Whistleblower Susan Lindauer has described how the Iraqi regime was threatened with war behind the scenes by Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and George W Bush, prior to 9/11.   Three men who were committed to the US 'fighting and decisively winning multiple simultaneous major theatre wars'.

The Iraqi regime were panicking and offered to fully cooperate on any matter the US demanded them to. They were desperate to avoid war, desperate to have sanctions lifted.  They offered for the US to send an FBI team to Baghdad to hunt down and apprehend any person linked to terrorism.  The US did not send any such team.

You seem to be suggesting that the US goal was simply to wage war for no reaosn other than to be able to do so.

PNAC was not the US government yet didn't advocate that either.

You are ignoring that the bullet point you selected states simply they favored the US military being kept at a force level which would enable the US to fight 2 wars simultaneously in 2 different theaters.   That was the same force level we were at during the Cold War they simply advocated returning to such levels.

The rationale behind wanting Saddam replaced was to get rid of his WMD threat.  So long as he remained in power he was a threat to his neighbors and we had to keep our forces in Saudi Arabia which happens to be a major reason Bin Laden wanted to hit the US- because he wanted our infidel forces out of Saudi Arabia.

   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline maggie

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2014, 01:05:AM »
You seem to be suggesting that the US goal was simply to wage war for no reaosn other than to be able to do so.

PNAC was not the US government yet didn't advocate that either.

You are ignoring that the bullet point you selected states simply they favored the US military being kept at a force level which would enable the US to fight 2 wars simultaneously in 2 different theaters.   That was the same force level we were at during the Cold War they simply advocated returning to such levels.


The rationale behind wanting Saddam replaced was to get rid of his WMD threat.  So long as he remained in power he was a threat to his neighbors and we had to keep our forces in Saudi Arabia which happens to be a major reason Bin Laden wanted to hit the US- because he wanted our infidel forces out of Saudi Arabia.

Are you happy that America is a friend of Saudi Arabia?

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2014, 01:07:AM »
Well said Roch.  I agree entirely.  Scipio is an apologist for the Bush administration.

Far from it, I am a realist.  The notion the US just wanted to wage war for the sake of waging war is nonsense and the PNAC was simply a think tank not an arm of the US government.   The US got rid of Saddam in exchange for what?  What did we take from Iraq?  We took nothing from them all we did was spend blood and treasure to give them a democracy. We did such to benefit Iraqis, the safety of our allies who were threatened by Saddam and to prevent Iraq from having the opportunity to share WMDs with extremists.  Iraq was under sanctions and subject to inspections because:

They invaded a neighbor and had WMD programs and the fear was Saddam would produce WMDs and threaten his neighbors again.  He fooled the World into thinking he had active programs by playing cat and mouse games.  What we found out was that he had sleeper programs ready to start up again as soon as sanctions ended which means sanctions would have to have lasted forever to thrwart him.

Conspiracy theoreists always come up with TV stories of war being just to wage war.  They have no understanding at all of what war really is.  I suggest studying Clauswitz. 
   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2014, 01:59:AM »
Are you happy that America is a friend of Saudi Arabia?

I have no problem with the US being an ally of Saudi Arabia so long as Saudi Arabia stamps out Islamic fundamentalists.  When Saudi Arabia sponsors trouble then we need to get on top of them but you have more influence as an ally in trying to change their policy than you do as an enemy. 

The only way you can effectively confront enemies is by force and that only goes so far as well.  Whether force can be of use depends on the circumstances and the nature of the problem.

The situation in Ukraine is a good example.  No one has the balls to actual help Ukraine by arming them better so they can defeat the Russian sponsored insurgency and to deter further Russian aggression by making Ukraine a NATO member.  No one wants to risk a war over Ukraine.  That is the same attitude of course that Hitler thrived on.  Of course Russia would not go to war with the West over Ukraine though so the fears or a war by helping are unwarranted and Russia would be deterred from invading if Ukraine did become part of NATO because insane is one thing Putin is not.

Invading Saudi Arabia to establish a democracy where we impose western values on them would be unjustifiable.  You try to lobby them to change and put pressure that you can in terms of an allied relationship you don't take over unless someone is a major threat to other countries. That is both because the public won't tolerate such interventions but also because that is International Law.  That is why Russia trying to take over a country doing nothing to it or any other country is not justifiable under International law.  Putin made it clear he wanted to make sure Crimea was taken over before Ukraine could join NATO because he didn't want a NATO naval base there.  Putin has a colonial mentality instead of a 21st Century mentality.  People like him only understand force and threat of force and it must thus be used to challenge him. It is sheer hypocrisy to kill tens of thousands in Chechnya then claim Ukriane has no right to preserve its borders.

China is a horrible regime and yet the US is still friendly with China for economic reasons.  The interwoven world economies actually helps discourage war. Russia could not afford to stop selling petrol and oil to Europe its economy could collapse which just makes the lack of guts even more pathetic.

Most countries are not willing to aid others out of principle they do so when there is some economic threat of not acting.  The threat to Middle Eastern Oil is why the World acted against Saddam.  What oil is in Syria?  Syria was a major supporter of terrorism and threat in terms of WMDs so there was a reason to aid the rebels but no one did and now look at the mess. 

The best solution is one that would be hard.  Forming a government in exile and helping such government take over every inch of Syria so expelling Assad as well as the extremeists.   How do you pick the government in exile and to make sure extremists are not part of their orignaization?  You would have to make them form a constitution or something of that sort befor earming them so that if successful you have a system you can trust.  We didn't do that in Iraq or Afghainsitan and it was a mistake.

People don't want to put the effort in though instead they want to just bomb and hope somebody will defeat ISIS somehow without knowing what those people will then do.  It's a freaking joke.  Military force is a continuation of politics by other means.  The current political leaders of the US and most other countries are all grossly incompetent fools who have no real understanding of politics including the polical art of military power.  They neither understand its limits nor how to effectively use it in those instances where it is actually valuable.       





 

 

 

 

 

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline tyler

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2014, 12:15:PM »
'What oil is in Syria' I assume you are joking? I predict that Iran will be the next US target. This is all about the US wanting to control the oil - nothing more!

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2014, 12:20:PM »
'What oil is in Syria' I assume you are joking? I predict that Iran will be the next US target. This is all about the US wanting to control the oil - nothing more!

A little bit, it would appear.  :-\

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Syria#Oil

No-Bits

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2014, 12:23:PM »
A little bit, it would appear.  :-\

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Syria#Oil

Maybe this is the clue though?  :-\

From wiki:
Although Syria produces relatively modest quantities of oil and gas, its location is strategic in terms of regional security and prospective energy transit routes.

Offline Patti

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2014, 12:25:PM »
I noted that form 2012 Syria no longer trades in oil to the Countries that were showing on the map due sanctions.  :)

Offline nugnug

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2014, 12:32:PM »
currently oil is sold in us dollars if it wasnt the dollar would collapse.

iraq tried to sell oil in euros iran wanted to sell oil for gold that's what this is all about.

libya was trying to create a single African currency all of this would of sunk the us dollar.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 01:27:PM by nugnug »

Offline tyler

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2014, 01:13:PM »
Exactly nugs! Also, it is worth looking at the NWO geo political plan, which is - To control the natural resources of the world. To control the markets for those resources. To control the transit routes,sea lanes and pipeline routes for those resources.

Offline nugnug

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2014, 01:32:PM »
personally its more about currency than natural resources not that they don't play a part.

America couldn't run 4 trillion budget deficits if the dollar wasn't the worlds reserve currency and its on the worlds reserve currency because oil is sold in dollars.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2014, 05:40:PM »
A little bit, it would appear.  :-\

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Syria#Oil

Too little for the World to care.  In the meantime there are many unemployed malcontents ripe for recruiting for Islamic terroristic endeavors but the World's politicians were too stupid to consider that aspect.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: British Hostage David Haines
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2014, 05:51:PM »
personally its more about currency than natural resources not that they don't play a part.

America couldn't run 4 trillion budget deficits if the dollar wasn't the worlds reserve currency and its on the worlds reserve currency because oil is sold in dollars.

China and other countries don't exchange in dollars.  The sale of bonds is how the US spends more than it takes in, in revenue.  The largest foreign buyer is China which doesn't trade oil in dollars.     

You don't seme to know much about economics just the fairytales on the Web.  Why isn't the Canadian or Australian dollars worthless?  What is traded in them? 

In the meantime those that do trade in US dollars only do so on paper they convert to their own currency to pay typically.  The same way that I paid for an item I purchased from the UK in dollars but the payment was converted on paper to pounds so that the recipient received pounds though I paid in dollars.

If the US can't meet its bond payments then you will see the dollar collapse.  That is what makes a currency collapse when there is either hyperinflation or an inability to pay creditors.

If Democrats remain in power that could come to pass one day as they seem to want to spend far more than can be afforded without any care in the World.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry