Sheila's blood underneath the bible. Certain guilt ?

[scipio_usmc]

I really don't understand what you mean about it being folded over at all, if the page is folded it would still not in the blood. By the way, Jeremy has a copy of the original and he confirmed it is a palm print.

Jeremy is not qualified to assess based on a photo whether something is a palm print or not and given his bias and history making up that Sheila's palm print in blood is on the bible is totally in character.

He presented no expert evidence to prove it was her palm print at trial or on appeal so his claims are quite worthless.

If you look at the photo which shows the pages folded over thwn you should be able to see that the pages on one side touch the ground while most of the page on the opposite side does not touch the ground because the page on the other side is blocking it. Because a small bible is so fat it is common for the pages to do that.  Most books are too long or too thin for that to happen.

[ I ]

That's a book opened up, pretend it is upside down.  Pretend blood is under the right half.  When you pick it up the blood would be on the left because the face of the left side was sitting in the blood.

What if the pages of the side on the left were folded under the right side though?  In that case the face of pages on the right side would be in the blood.  Very little of the pages on the left side would be exposed to blood because the other pages were blocking it.  That is what happened.   

[Caroline]

Jeremy is not qualified to assess based on a photo whether something is a palm print or not and given his bias and history making up that Sheila's palm print in blood is on the bible is totally in character.

He presented no expert evidence to prove it was her palm print at trial or on appeal so his claims are quite worthless.

If you look at the photo which shows the pages folded over thwn you should be able to see that the pages on one side touch the ground while most of the page on the opposite side does not touch the ground because the page on the other side is blocking it. Because a small bible is so fat it is common for the pages to do that.  Most books are too long or too thin for that to happen.

[ I ]

That's a book opened up, pretend it is upside down.  Pretend blood is under the right half.  When you pick it up the blood would be on the left because the face of the left side was sitting in the blood.

What if the pages of the side on the left were folded under the right side though?  In that case the face of pages on the right side would be in the blood.  Very little of the pages on the left side would be exposed to blood because the other pages were blocking it.  That is what happened.   

Well, that's a bold statement to make being as we don't know anything of the sort. You said the prosecution suggested it was a hand print - where did you read that and if that's the case, why is Jeremy agreeing with them? I think he's qualified to say it's a hand print if he can see it is. The picture we have isn't clear and yet it's possible to make out a palm print but he has a copy of the original a much better picture than the one we're looking at.

[scipio_usmc]

Well, that's a bold statement to make being as we don't know anything of the sort. You said the prosecution suggested it was a hand print - where did you read that and if that's the case, why is Jeremy agreeing with them? I think he's qualified to say it's a hand print if he can see it is. The picture we have isn't clear and yet it's possible to make out a palm print but he has a copy of the original a much better picture than the one we're looking at.

You can see quite easily that the page is folded over and the page that is on the bottom is in the blood.  This was apparent to the appeal court as well (though they also had expert evidence before them chirping in their ears to such effect):

"The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut [then reopened to the same page] whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial."

Why would Jeremy lie and say Sheila's palm print was in it?  The answer to that question is obvious. Jeremy's site is full of lies including the bogus claim that in Davidson's COLP interview he admitted to fingerprinting the moderator on August 9, 1985.  Such lies have not been raised on appeal because they are so easy for the government to prove false, they are for public consumption.

   

[Caroline]

You can see quite easily that the page is folded over and the page that is on the bottom is in the blood.  This was apparent to the appeal court as well (though they also had expert evidence before them chirping in their ears to such effect):

"The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut [then reopened to the same page] whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial."

Why would Jeremy lie and say Sheila's palm print was in it?  The answer to that question is obvious. Jeremy's site is full of lies including the bogus claim that in Davidson's COLP interview he admitted to fingerprinting the moderator on August 9, 1985.  Such lies have not been raised on appeal because they are so easy for the government to prove false, they are for public consumption.

   

I have read the 2002 appeal and I think they're wrong. I don't know what you mean about the page being folded - can't you draw it? Jeremy hasn't promoted the idea that it is Sheila's palm print - you won't find it on the OS.

[Caroline]

I think you can distinctly see the shape of a print.

[scipio_usmc]

I have read the 2002 appeal and I think they're wrong. I don't know what you mean about the page being folded - can't you draw it? Jeremy hasn't promoted the idea that it is Sheila's palm print - you won't find it on the OS.

My brother got all the art skills he won a painting contest in school and can build just about anything- I draw stick figures my artistic skills are nonexistent.

Picture a curved wave like this:

 

Pretend that the other half of the water under the wave is the other half of the book.  Now flip the wave upside down to the crest of the wave touches the floor. 

That is what a book folded over looks like.

Do you see the upside down "wave"?



very little of the right side (left side when you look at it face side up) is touching the ground only the end of the pages.  A good portion of the wave is touching the floor though specifically where the stain on the page is was touching the ground.

If that stain could surely be attributed to a hand covered by a bloody glove then the prosecution would have raised such. Some suggest that is the case but nothing credible has been put forth to establish such as opposed to simply it sitting in the stain.

I commonly hear claims that there were bloody fingerprints but that is not true and the bloody palm print claims are likewise unsupported by any reliable evidence.

   

[Caroline]

My brother got all the art skills he won a painting contest in school and can build just about anything- I draw stick figures my artistic skills are nonexistent.

Picture a curved wave like this:

 

Pretend that the other half of the water under the wave is the other half of the book.  Now flip the wave upside down to the crest of the wave touches the floor. 

That is what a book folded over looks like.

Do you see the upside down "wave"?



very little of the right side (left side when you look at it face side up) is touching the ground only the end of the pages.  A good portion of the wave is touching the floor though specifically where the stain on the page is was touching the ground.

If that stain could surely be attributed to a hand covered by a bloody glove then the prosecution would have raised such. Some suggest that is the case but nothing credible has been put forth to establish such as opposed to simply it sitting in the stain.

I commonly hear claims that there were bloody fingerprints but that is not true and the bloody palm print claims are likewise unsupported by any reliable evidence.

 

Do you mean this .....

[scipio_usmc]

I think you can distinctly see the shape of a print.

I don't see it. A palm print usually will have gaps because it is rare for a hand to be totally flat, particuarly while holding something.  How much blood is on the hand also plays a role the blood can be so thick as to leave a really good detail of certain lines because the rest will be solid red and suddently lines with no blood. 

If it were so obviously a palm print the prosecution would have tried to match it to Jeremy whereas the defense would have tried to rule him out and match it to Sheila. 

It is telling that the defense did not argue on appeal that it was a palm print and that they should have been able to suggest to the jury that it was Sheila's palm print but rather argued simply that the particular page the bible was opened to amunted to a "suicide note".  The palm print argument would have been far more compelling than to say the psalms on the pages amounted to a suicide note.   The correlation of the passages to suicide was not apparent to the court. But they had no evidence to support the palm claims. 

 

 

[scipio_usmc]

Do you mean this .....

It is going the opposite way of the pages as they made waves but hopefully you get the drift.

[Caroline]

It is going the opposite way of the pages as they made waves but hopefully you get the drift.

Is the picture I posted going in the way you're suggesting? Tried to post a picture of my own print but Firefox crashed (again!) - will post it tomorrow but it looks flat too.

[Caroline]

My print

[Caroline]

And together

[scipio_usmc]

Is the picture I posted going in the way you're suggesting? Tried to post a picture of my own print but Firefox crashed (again!) - will post it tomorrow but it looks flat too.

I probably should have done this all along look at how much flatter the book is on the reconstruction (from a pro Jeremy site I don't have that version of the Bible handy)  hence relatively equal portions of each page touch the ground versus in the real photo:

[scipio_usmc]

My print

That doesn't look like the original though, it looks enhanced to the point of changing it dramatically.  If there were a way to say this was done in a legitimate way to enhance it and it showed such detail that surely would be raised in court not just used to try to convice people who help him or write to him.

Using your own logic on you, this is a case where had Jeremy stuck her hand in blood then on the bible to make a palm print you would have expected him to make sure his lawyers got a hold of the bible to look at it. He would not have gone through that trouble for nothing.

It is also not credible that all the blood would have come off her hands should have had some still beyond the blood on the outside of her hand.

 

[Caroline]

That doesn't look like the original though, it looks enhanced to the point of changing it dramatically.  If there were a way to say this was done in a legitimate way to enhance it and it showed such detail that surely would be raised in court not just used to try to convice people who help him or write to him.

Using your own logic on you, this is a case where had Jeremy stuck her hand in blood then on the bible to make a palm print you would have expected him to make sure his lawyers got a hold of the bible to look at it. He would not have gone through that trouble for nothing.

It is also not credible that all the blood would have come off her hands should have had some still beyond the blood on the outside of her hand.

I can assure you, it was NOT enhanced!! I'm not sure how the print got there but as this is a tangible piece of evidence, Jeremy has no reason to lie. It doesn't prove anything either way but if it is a print, it obviously isn't Jeremy's or it would have been used to convict him. The bible is quite small and my hands are pretty small - a mans hand could never make the same size print.